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Thread: Hostess threatens to lay off 18,000 employees unless strike ends[W:521]

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    re: Hostess threatens to lay off 18,000 employees unless strike ends[W:521]

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Isn't amazing that when businesses fail it's always the workers' fault -- never management's fault for being ****ty at managing the company. The fact is that Interstate Bakeries (Hostess' parent company) has been failing for a long time due to its inability to adapt to a changing marketplace. That's not to say that the union was right in digging in its heels, but let's not ignore management's share of the blame.

    A 2003 article pointing to IBC's management problem: Interstate Half Baked
    Who's saying it's the employees's fault? Nevertheless, when unions are involved, it's usually not just management's fault either. If there were no union, I'd blame management completely.
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    re: Hostess threatens to lay off 18,000 employees unless strike ends[W:521]

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Isn't amazing that when businesses fail it's always the workers' fault -- never management's fault for being ****ty at managing the company. The fact is that Interstate Bakeries (Hostess' parent company) has been failing for a long time due to its inability to adapt to a changing marketplace. That's not to say that the union was right in digging in its heels, but let's not ignore management's share of the blame.

    A 2003 article pointing to IBC's management problem: Interstate Half Baked
    This filing began in January, the CEO was replaced in March, and all signs indicate that Rayburn was on the right path. Four top executives took a 99.999% pay cut, and four others took 40-80% pay cuts in line with restructuring. Nearly half of the union workers had agreed to the new contract. The other half, approximately 4,000 employees out of 18,500 decided to hold out at the advice of their union. The result was what we have before us today. 4,000 greedy assholes led by a destructive, wholly inaccurate union have now successfully killed 18,500 jobs.

    What else would you have had the CEO do? Cut the salaries of non-union employees by 50% during the shut down in hopes of keeping the company alive until the 4,000 came to their senses? Fire all non-union employees in hopes of keeping the company alive until the 4,000 came to their senses? Caved to the demands of 1/2 of the union workers, comprising less than 25% of the total work force, even knowing that such a cave would make the business less likely to acquire funding and security for a stable outlook?

    The union was wrong here, and it should be made absolutely clear to them that they were wrong.

    Comparing what is happening in this bankruptcy filing to what happened damn near 10 years ago is a dishonest means of trying to paint current management as the catalyst for this. Rayburn has been on the job since March of this year and by all appearances meant to save Hostess. Too bad the unions cared less for the company they "helped build" than the man who'd only been there 7 months.

    But yeah, make management the villain here, in this situation, in this context, given the facts available. Whatever spin you have to come up with to make it happen is totally cool. What the hell does reality matter, anyway?
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  3. #173
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    re: Hostess threatens to lay off 18,000 employees unless strike ends[W:521]

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Who's saying it's the employees's fault? Nevertheless, when unions are involved, it's usually not just management's fault either. If there were no union, I'd blame management completely.
    The employees are the union....
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    re: Hostess threatens to lay off 18,000 employees unless strike ends[W:521]

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    This filing began in January, the CEO was replaced in March, and all signs indicate that Rayburn was on the right path. Four top executives took a 99.999% pay cut, and four others took 40-80% pay cuts in line with restructuring. Nearly half of the union workers had agreed to the new contract. The other half, approximately 4,000 employees out of 18,500 decided to hold out at the advice of their union. The result was what we have before us today. 4,000 greedy assholes led by a destructive, wholly inaccurate union have now successfully killed 18,500 jobs.

    What else would you have had the CEO do? Cut the salaries of non-union employees by 50% during the shut down in hopes of keeping the company alive until the 4,000 came to their senses? Fire all non-union employees in hopes of keeping the company alive until the 4,000 came to their senses? Caved to the demands of 1/2 of the union workers, comprising less than 25% of the total work force, even knowing that such a cave would make the business less likely to acquire funding and security for a stable outlook?

    The union was wrong here, and it should be made absolutely clear to them that they were wrong.

    Comparing what is happening in this bankruptcy filing to what happened damn near 10 years ago is a dishonest means of trying to paint current management as the catalyst for this. Rayburn has been on the job since March of this year and by all appearances meant to save Hostess. Too bad the unions cared less for the company they "helped build" than the man who'd only been there 7 months.

    But yeah, make management the villain here, in this situation, in this context, given the facts available. Whatever spin you have to come up with to make it happen is totally cool. What the hell does reality matter, anyway?
    Okay, so can you explain how it's the union's fault that, over the past decade, the company lost market share, ran up mountains of debt, and produced declining sales? Is it the union's fault that the underlying business was poorly run?
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    re: Hostess threatens to lay off 18,000 employees unless strike ends[W:521]

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Okay, so can you explain how it's the union's fault that, over the past decade, the company lost market share, ran up mountains of debt, and produced declining sales? Is it the union's fault that the underlying business was poorly run?
    It's the union's fault they refused to play ball in the 2012 restructuring issued by the CH11 bankruptcy filing. The top executives took dramatic pay cuts in April under Rayburn's leadership. Half the union workers agreed to a new contract. Half held out, and that half is at fault for the loss of 18,500 jobs. The blood is on their hands today, because they would rather 100% of the company lose 100% of their income, than 30% of the company lose 8%. Greedy, selfish, uneducated assholes that they were, they refused to see the writing on the wall.

    Even after gaining access to the financial reports and status updates for the company they refused to accept the reality of the situation and stayed on strike. Even after Rayburn flat out told them all of the jobs would be lost, they bowed down to their union gods and held the line. And when Rayburn called their bluff, they actually had the nerve to stand in line and cheer. They don't care one bit about the fact that 70% of the company's staff were held hostage by their unjustifiably selfish behavior. They had two choices: accept concessions so everybody keeps their job, or refuse to cooperate so everybody loses their job. They chose option 2, so **** them. They are totally at fault for what happened today. They were given all of the information and warning needed to understand what their decisions meant, and they made the wrong one.
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    re: Hostess threatens to lay off 18,000 employees unless strike ends[W:521]

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Okay, so can you explain how it's the union's fault that, over the past decade, the company lost market share, ran up mountains of debt, and produced declining sales? Is it the union's fault that the underlying business was poorly run?
    Very simply, if sales go down with a union contract you have limited means to control costs from labor. You cant make pay cuts, you cant make layoffs, you cant break the contract...etc etc. A union that demands more in this environment isnt in it to provide job safety, they are there to create an us versus them mentality that eventually reaches past the profitability of the company.

    Losing market share, etc isnt on the Union, but for the Union to continue to demand more when it plainly is not there to be had is naked greed.

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    re: Hostess threatens to lay off 18,000 employees unless strike ends[W:521]

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    It's the union's fault they refused to play ball in the 2012 restructuring issued by the CH11 bankruptcy filing. The top executives took dramatic pay cuts in April under Rayburn's leadership. Half the union workers agreed to a new contract. Half held out, and that half is at fault for the loss of 18,500 jobs. The blood is on their hands today, because they would rather 100% of the company lose 100% of their income, than 30% of the company lose 8%. Greedy, selfish, uneducated assholes that they were, they refused to see the writing on the wall.

    Even after gaining access to the financial reports and status updates for the company they refused to accept the reality of the situation and stayed on strike. Even after Rayburn flat out told them all of the jobs would be lost, they bowed down to their union gods and held the line. And when Rayburn called their bluff, they actually had the nerve to stand in line and cheer. They don't care one bit about the fact that 70% of the company's staff were held hostage by their unjustifiably selfish behavior. They had two choices: accept concessions so everybody keeps their job, or refuse to cooperate so everybody loses their job. They chose option 2, so **** them. They are totally at fault for what happened today. They were given all of the information and warning needed to understand what their decisions meant, and they made the wrong one.
    I don't dispute that the union probably screwed up. All I'm saying is that it wasn't their fault that the company found itself in the position of having to slash pay and benefits just to have a chance to go a few more years before possibly going bankrupt for a third time. They wouldn't have been in that position if management hadn't sucked donkey dicks for the last 10+ years.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    re: Hostess threatens to lay off 18,000 employees unless strike ends[W:521]

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    The employees are the union....
    Now you know it's not that simple, the Union speaks for the employees through representatives. There are contracts involved, etc.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    re: Hostess threatens to lay off 18,000 employees unless strike ends[W:521]

    Note: 18,000 empolyees @$20/hr for a 2000-hour year = $659,000,000.

    One CEO apparently, at maximum, and who is no longer there = $2,500,000.

    Also note: a company struggling in a competitive market does NOT, repeat, NOT necessarily indicate "mismanagement."
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    re: Hostess threatens to lay off 18,000 employees unless strike ends[W:521]

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    I don't dispute that the union probably screwed up. All I'm saying is that it wasn't their fault that the company found itself in the position of having to slash pay and benefits just to have a chance to go a few more years before possibly going bankrupt for a third time. They wouldn't have been in that position if management hadn't sucked donkey dicks for the last 10+ years.
    And for the third time: New management, new CH11 filing, new CEO, new structuring.

    The unions had the financials in front of them. They had the power. They just terminated 18,500 out of nothing but greed and selfish idiocy. Keep defending them by discussing failures of people who aren't even controlling the company anymore, and keep ignoring the reality of the current situation if you must.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


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