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Thread: Census: U.S. Poverty Rate Spikes, Nearly 50 Million Americans Affected

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    Re: Census: U.S. Poverty Rate Spikes, Nearly 50 Million Americans Affected

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Oh, true case and effect are difficult, but if you read this is exactly what I've been saying. There's a study in polls forum. Or look up Stanford study on gap between rich and poor. I like thank because the focus is on the effect on education. But it covers this as well.
    Which does not make an income gap meaningful in and of itself. Not sure why that's so hard to get.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Census: U.S. Poverty Rate Spikes, Nearly 50 Million Americans Affected

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    The new normal has arrived. "Tax the rich, feed the poor, 'til there are no rich no more" - by the band Ten Years After from their song "I'd love to change the world".
    Give the wealthy some credit, most are ingenious enough to withstain a tax hike of 4%, after all, many accumulated their wealth during periods where taxation was far harsher and punitive.

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    Re: Census: U.S. Poverty Rate Spikes, Nearly 50 Million Americans Affected

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    An increasing gap does not necessarily indicate decreased purchasing power of anyone.

    Which is why, in and of itself, the gap is meaningless.
    Decreased in gross terms? No, but it does indicate a greater disparity in the distribution of wealth, which certainly can lead to adverse results.

    The phrase itself isn't particularly meaningful, but the figures that lie behind the claim certainly are. A full decade in which median income declined, coupled with higher poverty rates certainly prolong recessionary periods and inhibit growth on a broad scale.

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    Re: Census: U.S. Poverty Rate Spikes, Nearly 50 Million Americans Affected

    Quote Originally Posted by H. Lee White View Post
    OK... so what?
    There no increase in poverty, and so people are not being made poor to finance the increase in anyone's wealth.
    So... your complaint here doesnt have anyhting to do with the poor, but some unfounded idea that some people having 'more' is not a good thing - and, by extension, that the government needs to do something about it.
    No. A country with a weak middle class, with mostly haves and have nots, has more than a few problems. Remember how important the illusion that all can be rich is to our system. History is full of examples of what happens when the divide gets too large.

    So, it is about poverty, but not just a number, and not in a vacuum. Like most things, more than a few factors play a role in any one thing, one thing usually also effects more than one thing. The gap, as it grows, has such an effect. And your seeing some of it in the fake class warfare. There is a breeding of discontent that will likely not be good for this country on the whole.

    But that discussion requires a lot more than I am willing to tackle at this place and time. The smaller point here is that for a long time we've favored the wealthy, cut services as we cut their taxes, and then blamed those who fell to the lower side of the gap. We lose people for the tax base. We don't have what he had to move them back. And part of why is the misplaced belief that what the wealthy did for so long, and once willingly as part of civic duty because the understood they too benefit by a healthy middle class..

    Sure there are other issues. A shrinking world. Out sourcing. technology. But, this gap is also a large part of the problem.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Census: U.S. Poverty Rate Spikes, Nearly 50 Million Americans Affected

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Which does not make an income gap meaningful in and of itself. Not sure why that's so hard to get.
    Again, in and of itself are your words, which I think have very little meaning. You saying an and of itself(as nothing is in and of itself) doesn't make anyone go, "we'll damn, it's not a problem then."

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Census: U.S. Poverty Rate Spikes, Nearly 50 Million Americans Affected

    Quote Originally Posted by a351 View Post
    Give the wealthy some credit, most are ingenious enough to withstain a tax hike of 4%, after all, many accumulated their wealth during periods where taxation was far harsher and punitive.
    For that matter so is everybody else, the economy was wonderful under Clinton's tax rates. After all, it was the "Bush" tax rates that Obama blames for many of his economic ills. If revenue, rather than "social justice", is what Obama truely wants then that is all the more reason to allow ALL of the tax rates to return to the "pre-Bush" levels. What Obama really dreads is any talk of returning to the Clinton federal spending level of 19% of GDP, or even the Bush federal spending level of 20% of GDP because Obama, while keeping federal spending at 24% of GDP (yep 20% more that that of Bush), assures us that we have a federal revenue problem.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Census: U.S. Poverty Rate Spikes, Nearly 50 Million Americans Affected

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    If revenue, rather than "social justice", is what Obama truely wants then that is all the more reason to allow ALL of the tax rates to return to the "pre-Bush" levels. What Obama really dreads is any talk of returning to the Clinton federal spending level of 19% of GDP.
    Some realize that Clinton era tax and spending rates while both viable and non prohibitive under a specific set of economic circumstances, could prove to hamper consumer activity and would potentially send us hurdling towards yet another recession given our current state. Too many attempt to seek out a one size fits all approach to taxation and spending regardless of circumstances in the current day and age, whether it be conservatives mired in the Reagan era or liberals daydreaming about the Clinton age.

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    Re: Census: U.S. Poverty Rate Spikes, Nearly 50 Million Americans Affected

    Quote Originally Posted by a351 View Post
    Some realize that Clinton era tax and spending rates while both viable and non prohibitive under a specific set of economic circumstances, could prove to hamper consumer activity and would potentially send us hurdling towards yet another recession given our current state. Too many attempt to seek out a one size fits all approach to taxation and spending regardless of circumstances in the current day and age, whether it be conservatives mired in the Reagan era or liberals daydreaming about the Clinton age.
    You offer a sort of chicken and egg argument there. Was the economy good under Clinton because of the federal gov't taxation/spending ratios (nearly balanced) or in spite of them? Obama has repeatedly said that the Bush taxation was bad news for the economy and contibuted heavily to the federal deficit, yet rather than raise taxes Obama reduced them and added 20% more federal spending as well. You can not have it both ways - you either borrow and spend or raise taxes to pay for the spending. Clearly running over $1 trillion in annual federal deficts is neither working nor sustainable, it is simply kicking the can down the road and hoping for change.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Census: U.S. Poverty Rate Spikes, Nearly 50 Million Americans Affected

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    You offer a sort of chicken and egg argument there. Was the economy good under Clinton because of the federal gov't taxation/spending ratios (nearly balanced) or in spite of them?

    Obama has repeatedly said that the Bush taxation was bad news for the economy and contibuted heavily to the federal deficit

    yet rather than raise taxes Obama reduced them and added 20% more federal spending as well.

    You can not have it both ways - you either borrow and spend or raise taxes to pay for the spending.
    Well, the tax rates at the time certainly didn't inhibit growth, and the revenue that stemmed from said tax rates were certainly put towards fruitful causes, so I'm afraid this is a question I can't answer in black and white terms earnestly either.

    And it did, just about every economist of said time period will insist that the lessening of tax rates across the board, despite the potential to stockpile a nice amount of wealth away for a rainy day and invest in some important domestic ventures, was a hasty and shortsighted move.

    Different scenarios entirely, Obama entered office with a tanking economy, which made hiking up taxes on consumers an absolute boneheaded proposition at the time. Also remember that those on the other side of the aisle weren't and still aren't compliant with any strategy that would even hint at doing so.

    Well, deficits don't have to be serviced entirely in the near and now, they can be offset and serviced in future years by a nice mixture of spending cuts and tax hikes, when deemed appropriate and responsible. Again with the binary reasoning.

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    Re: Census: U.S. Poverty Rate Spikes, Nearly 50 Million Americans Affected

    Quote Originally Posted by a351 View Post
    Decreased in gross terms? No, but it does indicate a greater disparity in the distribution of wealth, which certainly can lead to adverse results.
    Not by itself. My problem is with people (such as Boo) who say "income gap!!!!!" as though the gap itself is a self-evident problem. It's not.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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