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Thread: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

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    re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna Tick View Post
    A zygote is not a human baby any more than your sperm cells are. It's a collection of cells that has human DNA, but has not yet developed a heartbeat or brainwaves.
    Sperm =/= zygote in terms of DNA. A brain and a heart are organs that come about from human development and are ineffective at fighting the value of a zygote.

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    re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Believing that even bad things that occur is "God's Will" is one part of the equation...

    ...There's nothing "disgusting" in believing or stating, in general, that a child concieved out of a horrible and tragic situation like Rape is still part of God's Will. That's no more "disgusting" than saying that a Child born to a mother who dies in child birth is "God's Will". Or stating that if one loses their job that it's "God's Will". It's a consistent notion within many Chrisitians...the notion that, GOOD or BAD, things happen in this world according to god's plan and that god sends nothing our way we aren't capable of handling. It's a mentality that allows some Christians to maintain a positive outlook or attitude when the situation around them is very bad, because it's a representation that hope can come from it. This mentality or thought process is hardly one that is foreign to people...but they like to get up in arms about it when it is applied to something they think is "too bad" for it. Essentially, people get upset that an individual is consistent.

    There's nothing inherently "disgusting" about that thought process.
    I wouldn't use words such as "disgusting" about it, but I do find it a deeply troubling philosophical position to take, hence my problems with the Calvinistic strand of Christian theology. I can't reconcile the concept that man has no free will with the concept of a perfectly good and benevolent god.
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    re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Gehrig View Post
    I have every right to shoot someone that won't leave my house.
    I have to say I find this interesting. The guy is just sitting there doing nothing and you think that you have the right to shoot and kill him.

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    re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Sperm =/= zygote in terms of DNA. A brain and a heart are organs that come about from human development and are ineffective at fighting the value of a zygote.
    Let's all sing. *Jesus loves the little zygotes, all the zygotes of the world ... *

    There are no zygotes that can think or feel. Maybe you push a zygote around in a baby carriage. I've certainly never seen that, but if such a thing exists, I'd like to.

    Even the anti-abortion people used to be okay with a woman taking the morning after pill if she were raped. That's NOT an abortion. That's stopping a pregnancy from beginning. That was preferred by the pro life people because it meant an abortion would not have to happen later on. Now that movement has gone absurdly extreme in an attempt to even protect a zygote.

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    re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    I don't see how it's a reasonable comment, Anagram.
    Do you find it at least reasonable, even if you don't agree with it, for someone to tell a friend that just lost their job "Keep your head up. It's all part of god's plan and he doesn't send more at us then we can take. It's horrible you lost your job, but I know you'll come out of this in a positive way."

    Because this is essentially a consistent application of the above logic. In either case it's not saying the Rape or the Loss of a Job is a GOOD THING or saying that you should be happy for it...but rather is saying that the reprucussions of it is a challenge, but one that you can overcome and quite possibly could lead to something even better than you had previously imagined.

    I just don't get the "OMG That is unreasonable/disgusting/etc as a comment" other than people acting viserally from an emotional level as the topic of rape is want to do. I understand that reaction when it comes to actual laws surrounding it, but not to the general statement or thought process.

    Now...it's a retarded thing to say during an election and as a public figure, specifically due to that viseral reaction such things causes. But I think the comment is pretty internally consistent with the general thinking and comments of many christians and one that I don't think is inherently dispicable or unreasonable in nature.

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    re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Do you find it at least reasonable, even if you don't agree with it, for someone to tell a friend that just lost their job "Keep your head up. It's all part of god's plan and he doesn't send more at us then we can take. It's horrible you lost your job, but I know you'll come out of this in a positive way."

    Because this is essentially a consistent application of the above logic. In either case it's not saying the Rape or the Loss of a Job is a GOOD THING or saying that you should be happy for it...but rather is saying that the reprucussions of it is a challenge, but one that you can overcome and quite possibly could lead to something even better than you had previously imagined.

    I just don't get the "OMG That is unreasonable/disgusting/etc as a comment" other than people acting viserally from an emotional level as the topic of rape is want to do. I understand that reaction when it comes to actual laws surrounding it, but not to the general statement or thought process.

    Now...it's a retarded thing to say during an election and as a public figure, specifically due to that viseral reaction such things causes. But I think the comment is pretty internally consistent with the general thinking and comments of many christians and one that I don't think is inherently dispicable or unreasonable in nature.
    It may be a consistent application of logic, but that doesn't mean I ought not call it for what it is. Logic consistently applied leads to horrible results.
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    re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna Tick View Post
    Let's all sing. *Jesus loves the little zygotes, all the zygotes of the world ... *
    I'm not religious.

    There are no zygotes that can think or feel. Maybe you push a zygote around in a baby carriage. I've certainly never seen that, but if such a thing exists, I'd like to.
    I'm sorry, but did I not just say that doesn't matter

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    re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Do you find it at least reasonable, even if you don't agree with it, for someone to tell a friend that just lost their job "Keep your head up. It's all part of god's plan and he doesn't send more at us then we can take. It's horrible you lost your job, but I know you'll come out of this in a positive way."

    Because this is essentially a consistent application of the above logic. In either case it's not saying the Rape or the Loss of a Job is a GOOD THING or saying that you should be happy for it...but rather is saying that the reprucussions of it is a challenge, but one that you can overcome and quite possibly could lead to something even better than you had previously imagined.

    I just don't get the "OMG That is unreasonable/disgusting/etc as a comment" other than people acting viserally from an emotional level as the topic of rape is want to do. I understand that reaction when it comes to actual laws surrounding it, but not to the general statement or thought process.

    Now...it's a retarded thing to say during an election and as a public figure, specifically due to that viseral reaction such things causes. But I think the comment is pretty internally consistent with the general thinking and comments of many christians and one that I don't think is inherently dispicable or unreasonable in nature.
    In my opinion, it's still inappropriate for another person to say that something as tragic as this is part of God's plan.

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    re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

    Ultimately, this is "things happen for a reason." I don't really agree.

    But I'm resolved to "things happen," and don't rightfully think that one evil is well-resolved with another, arguably greater evil.

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    re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I wouldn't use words such as "disgusting" about it, but I do find it a deeply troubling philosophical position to take, hence my problems with the Calvinistic strand of Christian theology. I can't reconcile the concept that man has no free will with the concept of a perfectly good and benevolent god.
    And see, I can understand the overall disagreement or issue with the over arching philosophy, though I don't particularly have it so much. I have always viewed it as one of those things that is a "Chicken and the egg" type of situation. One of those things that is inherent within the notion of "faith" and my views in regards to the super natural. The notion of Free Will and a Divine Plan is foreign to our generalized notion and seems incompatible becuase of the laws of nature as we generally know them. However, I view it in a more theoritical fashion outside of your general laws of nature and it makes some sense to me....

    Man has free will to act in situations. When given situation X they could choose answers A - B - C. What they choose is not pre-ordained. At the same time though, if the framework of all things is laid out by god, then all things coming from that framework are part of the master plan....and that would include free will. "God's" Will, if you would, was that you'd have Free Will. And because god is timeless and all knowing, he exists outside of time and thus knows which answer you choose far in advance while at the same time allows you to choose it.

    It's actually one of those fun little things regarding faith / theology / etc that I can understand why it frustrates people but at the same time I think can be fun as it presents interesting philisophical and mental exercises and requires that one potentially change the standard viewing scope our mind thinks.

    Let me put it in a different explanation (and then I should probably stop becaues it's slowly diverging from topic, but still somewhat related). And I will say, the explanation is a bit silly but what the hell....

    Think of God a viewer of a Reality Show (Why do I feel I'm opening myself up to hate mail for that ).

    The reality show is a carefully planned house with multiple people in it. The people, items in the house, and external events that happen are all carefully planned to make certain situations, events, or choices more likely to occur. However, ultimately, within the house itself each person on the show has free will to make their choices of what to do in the house.

    God's watched all of season 1 a few years ago, and they're now running a replay marathon of that season...but they're doing it out of order. All the individuals in the house are still, on screen, displaying the free will in their choices of what to do within the "plan" of the shows creators, but "God" the viewer already knows what their answers to those choices are going to be because he's existing outside of the time that the show is functioning within and has already seen what they choose.

    At some point, "God" manages to then steal a Delorean, ramps it up to 88 MPH, goes back in time and actually is the producer of said show that he ends up watching and knowing the results to.

    Also maybe there's a man in a Rabbit costume creeping out a gay cowboy, **** is I know...time travel screws with my head.

    But anyways..that's kind of veering off, but it's somewhat how I view that whole "God's Will" notion. If you believe in the line of thought, "God" created the universe in a planned fashion, causing the laws of nature to be what they are and bringing forth man into existance inevitably, along with their free will, which in and of itself is part of his plan and thus the actions we humans take is also part of that plan. And, that based on the general Christian reasonings, God never sends more struggles than we are physically/emotionally CAPABLE of taking which really pretty much means that there's nothing that happens where we can't make a choice to get past beyond the point when our time is simply over.

    As such...if you subscribe to such a thought, it's actually more disturbing to me if you believe that a woman meeting a man, falling in love, and having a child is "gods plan" but somehow something bad happening is not...to me, that actually is inconsistently applying your view point which is somewhat troubling to me.

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