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Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

To play devil's advocate, one could say the former but not the latter, because God would not intentionally harm someone.

This notion that we're all just puppets dangling on the end of God's strings is also preposterous, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

I guess according to you, it was also God's plan for me to be a zealous abortion rights advocate, and to force you anti-abortion types to shove over.
 
re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

This notion that we're all just puppets dangling on the end of God's strings is also preposterous, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

I guess according to you, it was also God's plan for me to be a zealous abortion rights advocate, and to force you anti-abortion types to shove over.

Did you not see where I said "to play devil's advocate"?
 
re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

This notion that we're all just puppets dangling on the end of God's strings is also preposterous, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

I guess according to you, it was also God's plan for me to be a zealous abortion rights advocate, and to force you anti-abortion types to shove over.

Hah - it backfires, doesn't it? The notion that we're all fulfilling God's will with our actions in life.

No - really - in the eyes of my parent's we're really just puppets of the devil set in the path of the religious divine to inhibit their godly progression through life. Yep. It's a plot straight out of sci-fi.
 
re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

Oh, I don't disagree. I'm sure something like that could get you punched square in the face. Hell, I WOULD possibly punch someone square in the face in the right situtaion for that. It's amazingly stupid politically. It's a relatively tactless method of expressing the general thought process. I'm not going to sit here and deny any of those things becuase I agree with them, and have even said as much earlier in this post.

That still doesn't make it "disgusting" in my mind or "unreasonable" as a general thought process.

The GOP election strategy seems to be "be obnoxious". Their candidates can't sink far enough into the mud, and it's all good as long as the audience understands that what is said is extremely offensive to liberals, because we are "evil" and "anything goes" in attempting to block any move towards a more just society.

Not saying all GOP candidates do this, or that no Democratic ones do, but the GOP apparently sees its voter base as having a never-ending appetite for the cruel, the sensational, the offensive -- as long as a liberal somewhere is annoyed by it.
 
re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

Hah - it backfires, doesn't it? The notion that we're all fulfilling God's will with our actions in life.

No - really - in the eyes of my parent's we're really just puppets of the devil set in the path of the religious divine to inhibit their godly progression through life. Yep. It's a plot straight out of sci-fi.

I can be devilish, for the right amount of money -- or in the name of justice.

:lol:
 
re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

To play devil's advocate, one could say the former but not the latter, because God would not intentionally harm someone.

Depending on one's belief system, that could be reasonable to argue. That said...I don't think the traditional Christian Belief System...what with plagues and floods and other such things that harmed people. You can also kind of see my earlier post in here to see a way one may interprit "god's plan" while still believing there's free will (namely, Free Will is part of The Plan) so he didn't directly CAUSE the harm but the harm happening and the consequences of it are still all part of the overall "plan" .

But yes, that's the issue with judging peoples thought processes. Unless one actually had a good understanding of them...and you're NEVER going to have that by reading a few newspaper blurbs...it's hard to HONESTLY comment about them in anything other than an emotional biased fashion because you just don't have the data to acurately comment.
 
re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

It's disgusting in the sense that it's essentially saying that this horrible act wasn't committed by some terrible, evil person, but was actually done by God, and because it was God's plan, you should just accept it.

Disagree entirely. This is part of what I mean in my last post regarding people appying hteir own biases, making assumptions, and then judging off that due to complete lack of informatoin.

It can just as easily be saying that the horrible act that was committed was horrible, as was the person doing it, but that all things happen for a reason as part of gods plan and that as horrible and terrible as the act was, the consequences or reprucussions of it are their own thing and they may turn out to be positive.

If you break your ankle as a teen as you're running away from a Bully that was pummeling you, that sucks. If breaking your ankle ends up causing you to have to spend a summer in doors, that's massively depressing. If spending that summer indoors gives you time to learn how to use a computer so much that you discover a love for it and turn it into a $150,000 a year profession a decade latter, that's great. The fact that your professoin came about in part due to a terrible sucky thing happening to you doesn't mean that the finding of the profession was terrible and sucky inherently.

That's the general thought process here imho. The RAPE is a horrible, terrible, awful thing. The child, in their mind, came about due to the Rape but is not inherently a "horrible, terrible, awful thing". What people are doing, through their own biases, assumptions, and feeling and are trying to suggest that somehow because he's saying the child isn't a horrible, terrible, awful thing that he's somehow saying the Rape isn't. I simply disagree, and don't see how one can adquettely make such an argument.
 
re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

Do you find it at least reasonable, even if you don't agree with it, for someone to tell a friend that just lost their job "Keep your head up. It's all part of god's plan and he doesn't send more at us then we can take. It's horrible you lost your job, but I know you'll come out of this in a positive way."
I'd recognise the friend was trying of offer comfort, but made things worse because a) I know hundreds of case where He sent more than people were able to cope with, and b) I refer back to that Camus quote: “For who would dare to assert that eternal happiness can compensate for a single moment's human suffering”



Man has free will to act in situations. When given situation X they could choose answers A - B - C. What they choose is not pre-ordained. At the same time though, if the framework of all things is laid out by god, then all things coming from that framework are part of the master plan....and that would include free will. "God's" Will, if you would, was that you'd have Free Will. And because god is timeless and all knowing, he exists outside of time and thus knows which answer you choose far in advance while at the same time allows you to choose it.
You see, that is an excellent explanation of some Christian takes on the issue of Free Will, but that isn't the Calvinist take on it. Divine Sovereignty implies that God both can and does plot the life path of all humans, preordains the outcome and will not take into account the 'goodness' or 'badness' of any individual's actions, because those actions are already predestined.

Think of God a viewer of a Reality Show (Why do I feel I'm opening myself up to hate mail for that ;)).

The reality show is a carefully planned house with multiple people in it. The people, items in the house, and external events that happen are all carefully planned to make certain situations, events, or choices more likely to occur. However, ultimately, within the house itself each person on the show has free will to make their choices of what to do in the house.
Again, not an explanation of Calvinist thinking. Arminianist perhaps, Lutheran or Thomist perhaps, but not Calvinist.

To play devil's advocate, one could say the former but not the latter, because God would not intentionally harm someone.
Unless God is omnipotent and omniscient, then He is the agent of all things, both good and bad.
 
re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

Disagree entirely. This is part of what I mean in my last post regarding people appying hteir own biases, making assumptions, and then judging off that due to complete lack of informatoin.

It can just as easily be saying that the horrible act that was committed was horrible, as was the person doing it, but that all things happen for a reason as part of gods plan and that as horrible and terrible as the act was, the consequences or reprucussions of it are their own thing and they may turn out to be positive.

If you break your ankle as a teen as you're running away from a Bully that was pummeling you, that sucks. If breaking your ankle ends up causing you to have to spend a summer in doors, that's massively depressing. If spending that summer indoors gives you time to learn how to use a computer so much that you discover a love for it and turn it into a $150,000 a year profession a decade latter, that's great. The fact that your professoin came about in part due to a terrible sucky thing happening to you doesn't mean that the finding of the profession was terrible and sucky inherently.

That's the general thought process here imho. The RAPE is a horrible, terrible, awful thing. The child, in their mind, came about due to the Rape but is not inherently a "horrible, terrible, awful thing". What people are doing, through their own biases, assumptions, and feeling and are trying to suggest that somehow because he's saying the child isn't a horrible, terrible, awful thing that he's somehow saying the Rape isn't. I simply disagree, and don't see how one can adquettely make such an argument.

I just think it's dangerous to say that whatever tragic event it might be, God intended it.

Even if this type of logic is used consistently, it's still dangerous.
 
re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

When an overwhelming majority of women, of child bearing age, agree that it's perfectly reasonable to expect (and "force through penalty of law") that any woman should have to carry a baby that's conceived through rape to term, and deliver it, then I'll be willing to listen to the argument.

As of now, when it's mostly men making that argument - well, it's obvious it's complete insanity and ignorance.
 
re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

When an overwhelming majority of women, of child bearing age, agree that it's perfectly reasonable to expect (and "force through penalty of law") that any woman should have to carry a baby that's conceived through rape to term, and deliver it, then I'll be willing to listen to the argument.

As of now, when it's mostly men making that argument - well, it's obvious it's complete insanity and ignorance.

Why are you making excuses to not think? You couldn't even be arsed to think of an argument that flows logically.
 
re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

And if it gets aborted, God intended that too.

Thank God for Abortion.
 
re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

I don't think that's true. Although I disagree with their views, and Akin said a lot that was just factually wrong, I can understand the reasoning behind their views and I think they are logically consistent. I also don't believe they've descended anywhere near the levels of madness as blowing up schools and assassinating 11 year olds.

But murdering abortion Doctors is OK? There is no difference between the radicals of any religion. After all they all believe they speak for God.
 
re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

I met someone yesterday who was a rape baby per her. Not really sure what to say when someone just randomly drops that bomb.
 
re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

And if it gets aborted, God intended that too.

Thank God for Abortion.

I believe that us knowing that we make decisions for ourselves is far more important than subscribing to the idea that a supernatural being has our lives all figured out ahead of time and divines everything around. There's no basket of loaves and fishes here in reality. There are no healing magical cures for the ailing. In real life - none of that exists.
 
re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

Richard Mourdock... Todd Akin..... why does the Republican Party seem like such a happy home and safe harbor to such people with such repulsive views?
 
re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

"Things happen for a reason" is a disgusting and repulsive view.

:lamo
 
re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

I believe that us knowing that we make decisions for ourselves is far more important than subscribing to the idea that a supernatural being has our lives all figured out ahead of time and divines everything around. There's no basket of loaves and fishes here in reality. There are no healing magical cures for the ailing. In real life - none of that exists.

Yes, but some people do buy that idea. My comment is aimed at those people. If god can intend a woman to get pregnant by rape, then God can certainly intend for that fetus to be aborted.
 
re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

"Things happen for a reason" is a "disgusting" and "repulsive" view.

:lamo

You must be "repulsed" by a lot of people, friend.

And if it gets aborted, God intended that too.

Thank God for Abortion.

Hrm. And this is why the logic used to argue in this way is not very sound. For if we are to say that the hand of God wanted a baby to be born so the evil rapist wasn't stopped, then why wouldn't the hand of God stop the baby from being killed by the evil abortionist, and so on? This is a bad way to make your argument, and honestly, it inverts on itself very quickly and ends up being an argument against religion itself. And yet, "things happen for a reason" is the sort of idea that so many people will fall back on or express, a plaintive hope in the face of adversity... It is a widespread belief, in any event, that there is a guiding hand to events, a divine plan.


Of course, one need not even appeal to a specific religion in making an argument against killing innocents... but needlessly slaughtering innocents isn't permissible in Christian dogma if one wants to appeal to that as the basis for that view.

In short, there's a better way to make the point he's trying to make, but it's not a bad point.
 
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re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

Who defines "needlessly"?

In this case? Reason.

You're talking about a self-limiting condition and an elective procedure to end it early at the cost of a human life.
 
re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

To force a woman to carry a pregnancy-through-rape to term, and deliver that child is medieval, abhorrent, and outright disgusting.

If some women have the mental, physical, and financial ability to do such a thing, fine, but to suggest that any and all women regardless of their situation SHOULD HAVE TO is truly frightening, offensive, and a tragic commentary on who some people are.
 
re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, God intended it | Reuters



Honestly, I think it is a reasonable and somewhat consistent position, although I don't agree with it. From the standpoint of someone trying to get elected in a close race with an unusually strong Libertarian candidate to splinter the Republican vote, it was just a stupid thing to say though. If it plays anything like Todd Akin's comment did, Joe Donnelly will take the senate seat from the Republicans in Indiana. I'd pretty much given up hope for the Republicans to take the senate this year anyway. Things looking very good for the GOP in 2014 though.

You forgot something in the thread title: STUPID Indiana Republican...

You think that's consistent? Consistent for a ProLife person to say to their raped and pregnant daughter in the privacy of their home, perhaps. Announce it to the world? Absolutely, positively idiotic.
 
re: Indiana Republican: When life begins from rape, "God intended" it [W:266]

In this case? Reason.

False. Reason doesn't make subjective determinations like that.

You're talking about a self-limiting condition and an elective procedure to end it early at the cost of a human life.

So?
 
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