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Thread: New York appeals court strikes down Defense of Marriage Act

  1. #81
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    Re: New York appeals court strikes down Defense of Marriage Act

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    See^^^ This is why I shouldn't have wasted my time. My answer is correct and yours is not.

    Tim-
    Yes, well declaring yourself right doesn't necessarily make it so. The Marriage License is a contract, it is one of the reasons why you have to have it dissolved in court for divorce. Additionally, government may not just strip you of it at their leisure as they can a drivers license (which still requires a contract between individual and State). The Marriage License composes a 3-party Contract. The license itself was nothing more than a backdoor means through which government hoped to gain control over marriage and as such is part of the contractual dynamic.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  2. #82
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    Re: New York appeals court strikes down Defense of Marriage Act

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Yes, well declaring yourself right doesn't necessarily make it so. The Marriage License is a contract, it is one of the reasons why you have to have it dissolved in court for divorce. Additionally, government may not just strip you of it at their leisure as they can a drivers license (which still requires a contract between individual and State). The Marriage License composes a 3-party Contract. The license itself was nothing more than a backdoor means through which government hoped to gain control over marriage and as such is part of the contractual dynamic.
    One does not dissolvetheir marriage license, anyone can still marry if they meet the requirements. They dissolve their marriage contract, and the fact that the state has decided how equity will be determined is by no means any admission that they have control over the terms of the marriage contract. Truth is that, now we have no fault in all 50 states, so the duties, responsibilities and obligations condition precedent are now mostly anything but, but I digress. One has to ask themselves whether the marriage contract is a contract at all between two people, or between two people as one and the state? I get what you're trying to say Ikari, we've talked about it before. Contract law in the US is about as complex as it gets, in fact most would argue that it is perhaps the most complex of all legal practices to master. It's not nearly as simple as you suggest it is, with your apparent failure to make the distinction between a marriage (or any license) license, and a civil contract.

    I guess we can agree to disagree as we did before.. But I'm right and your wrong.


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

  3. #83
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    Re: New York appeals court strikes down Defense of Marriage Act

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Yes it does..
    While it's been a while since I was on the debate team, I remember "because it does!" didn't go too well.


    I love arguing with true blue libertarians.. Question for you. Should we all be free to use the same bathrooms and change rooms? Now I know you'll say no because noone else is allowed to do that, but then I'd say, well why not? And you say???.....
    Sure. Another sign that society is stupid and illogical.

    No, but you can look in the sexuality forums. That'd be a good place to start, if you're really interested.
    Interesting. Most of the studies I've come across in Child Development journals and Psychology journals claim that there isn't enough evidence to really say it deters children.

    Can you elaborate?
    Read Thus Spoke Zarathustra, Beyond Good and Evil, or The Will to Power (although I'd be weary of the latter because it was posthumously printed and may / may not be Nietzsche's original works.)
    Tim-[/QUOTE]
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  4. #84
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    Re: New York appeals court strikes down Defense of Marriage Act

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    I have neither the time nor the inclination to spend a great deal of time on explaining it to you if you do not already know my well
    documented views on the subject. To do so would be a massive waste of time.
    You said...

    Gee I wonder what the pro gay police would say to my views on the topic.. LOL
    So we are supposed to guess?

    In my experience, people who've made up their minds on this issue, will not change them.
    Have you made up your mind about that?

    Suffice it to say that my argument stems mostly from a breakdown in the family over the last 40 years as leading to the direct result of why our country is as screwed up as it is. Gay marriage would add to that breakdown, it would not solve it, or improve it in any way. Kids need both their mothers and their fathers active in their lives and as direct role models. Uncles and Aunts, and neighbors, or schools do not provide for these needs, and until we decide collectively as a nation to restore these virtues, we're destined to fall even further as a once strong familial based society.
    A marriage between two people of the same sex in no way infringes upon the marriage of anyone else. That legal standard will not work.

    How do you suggest we restore the family? You are suggesting a package deal. That is, you don't want to allow gay marriage because you are hoping for some sort of cultural shift in the family. That implies that you would want to change something to improve the stability of families. I am here to tell you, marriage as it existed before women's liberation and the 70s is not going to come back without some sort of change in the treatment of marriage by the courts and state. I do not support a return to what existed before the 70s, but if you do or anyone else does they should be up front with it.

    Laws are representative of a societies values on justice and punishment. Libertarians, as I explained, just want to be in the drivers seat, as do conservatives and liberals.
    Tim-
    An honest libertarian and/or liberal usually are looking to find a framework that works for everyone. Many conservatives and/or progressives are the ones who demand the drivers seat and tell everyone else to shut up and be quiet.

  5. #85
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    Re: New York appeals court strikes down Defense of Marriage Act

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    While it's been a while since I was on the debate team, I remember "because it does!" didn't go too well.




    Sure. Another sign that society is stupid and illogical.



    Interesting. Most of the studies I've come across in Child Development journals and Psychology journals claim that there isn't enough evidence to really say it deters children.



    Read Thus Spoke Zarathustra, Beyond Good and Evil, or The Will to Power (although I'd be weary of the latter because it was posthumously printed and may / may not be Nietzsche's original works.)
    Tim-
    Well thanks for the reading suggestions, however I fear I have better things to be doing. Like thinking for myself.

    I already told you I'm NOT here to debate anyone. I'm merely here to profess any objections I might have about a particular comment or two. I've already done the debating part ad nausium, and there's really nothing to learn from the other sides point of view. I cannot possibly entertain the idea of presenting my views as complex as they are, as every little flare up on this topic appears on DP. Can you imagine? It's not something that can be summarized in a paragraph or two, and even if it could, the resulting oppositions questions and critique would require more vested time to clarify. What results is a link war that says my study is more credible than your study, but all the while both sides missing the point - that none of the studies meets the burden of proof required to win the debate. So where are we left? Nowhere really, and I have come to the point that when bored I'll enter a thread like this; spout off a few one liners, or maybe a parapgraph about my views on the subject, joust a bit, and then go back to my normal way of life.

    Topics (like this) are perfect for debate forums in some ways because there isn't a correct answer. The subjectivity of the material makes it perfect for philosophical forums, and or religious forums, but where facts and truth are concerned, very little is solved by spending days going back and forth in the hope that perhaps you'll find a way to articulate your point of view better, or more consice as to change anyones opinion, or vice versa.. It's a futile endeavour..


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: New York appeals court strikes down Defense of Marriage Act

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    I love arguing with true blue libertarians.. Question for you. Should we all be free to use the same bathrooms and change rooms? Now I know you'll say no because noone else is allowed to do that, but then I'd say, well why not? And you say???.....

    Tim-
    Oh that is such a head scratcher.... As long as the owner permits it and is willing to accept liability for possibly creating a dangerous environment in consideration of the cutlural and social norms in which the bathroom exists. Are you under the impression that such restrooms are prohibited by law or that they should be? Do you believe that providing for public safety is a valid state interest or imagine that it is no different than enforcing a narrow view of the state's interest in family?

  7. #87
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    Re: New York appeals court strikes down Defense of Marriage Act

    Quote Originally Posted by BayToBay View Post
    You said...



    So we are supposed to guess?



    Have you made up your mind about that?



    A marriage between two people of the same sex in no way infringes upon the marriage of anyone else. That legal standard will not work.

    How do you suggest we restore the family? You are suggesting a package deal. That is, you don't want to allow gay marriage because you are hoping for some sort of cultural shift in the family. That implies that you would want to change something to improve the stability of families. I am here to tell you, marriage as it existed before women's liberation and the 70s is not going to come back without some sort of change in the treatment of marriage by the courts and state. I do not support a return to what existed before the 70s, but if you do or anyone else does they should be up front with it.



    An honest libertarian and/or liberal usually are looking to find a framework that works for everyone. Many conservatives and/or progressives are the ones who demand the drivers seat and tell everyone else to shut up and be quiet.

    I'll tell you what. You seem like a bright fellow, I'll entertain your questions but it will have to wait until later this evening, however I'm not sure what you wish to focus on? Is it my views on gay marriage and they could potentially affect our society in the long run, or is it my ideas on how to recapture, or maybe reinvent my idea of the most ideal society? Or would you prefer that I pick on libertarians for the rest of our exchange? I can do either or, but in the interest of time and effort, I'd prefer you focus on my opposition consisting of one topic at a time? Fair? So, which one do take priority with?


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

  8. #88
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    Re: New York appeals court strikes down Defense of Marriage Act

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    I guess we can agree to disagree as we did before.. But I'm right and your wrong.


    Tim-
    You can claim it as much as you want, but any precursor to the contract is part of the contract. If I have right to contract, and I want to engage in contract, but you add a piece called a license on top of that contract that forbids me from entering that contract, you have infringed upon my right to contract (additionally, the license becomes part of the contract dynamics). Having done so through the use of government force, in this case the marriage license, is an act of aggressive government interference in the exercise of rights. The government is not allowed to act in this manner.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #89
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    Re: New York appeals court strikes down Defense of Marriage Act

    Quote Originally Posted by BayToBay View Post
    Oh that is such a head scratcher.... As long as the owner permits it and is willing to accept liability for possibly creating a dangerous environment in consideration of the cutlural and social norms in which the bathroom exists. Are you under the impression that such restrooms are prohibited by law or that they should be? Do you believe that providing for public safety is a valid state interest or imagine that it is no different than enforcing a narrow view of the state's interest in family?
    Ya know, call me silly, but I think you take issue with my challenging libertarian purism? Someone as well-read as yourself can't possibly like it when someone so clearly deficient on the subject matter as I, scoffs at something so dear to you that it approaches insulting. Especially since you've taken 20 years to adopt your philosophy, so let me ask you. Is this what you wish to discuss later this evening?


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

  10. #90
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    Re: New York appeals court strikes down Defense of Marriage Act

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You can claim it as much as you want, but any precursor to the contract is part of the contract. If I have right to contract, and I want to engage in contract, but you add a piece called a license on top of that contract that forbids me from entering that contract, you have infringed upon my right to contract (additionally, the license becomes part of the contract dynamics). Having done so through the use of government force, in this case the marriage license, is an act of aggressive government interference in the exercise of rights. The government is not allowed to act in this manner.
    The use of contract dynamic is interesting as an argument. I have to leave for a bit but I promise to entertain the idea in a response later. Agreed?


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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