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Thread: New York appeals court strikes down Defense of Marriage Act

  1. #51
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    New York appeals court strikes down Defense of Marriage Act

    Quote Originally Posted by BayToBay View Post
    Well, I still have not seen that reason or how you square it with a libertarian stance. This is a step in the right direction.

    I apologize for questioning your sincerity. I will try to refrain from doing that. I have become frustrated with libertarians who give lip service to civil liberties or who are really just embarassed Republicans. I should not assume that describes you.



    Why wouldn't I like that one? I read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" too.

    I am not necessarily opposed to polygamy, but it is not equvialent to same sex marriage. The fact that there would be more than two parties to the marriage changes the nature of it and creates numerous complexities for the state in enforcing the contract. For instance, if one party out of five seeks a divorce does that end the marriage of the other four? How is inheritance determined? If one person becomes incapicated and the other parties disagree on care, how is that handled? In terms of access to Federal benefits, this is not just a matter of cultural bias but creates real issues in how the programs are administered and operated. These and other questions would likely require statutory remedy and therefore the courts cannot possibly intervene. I would support polygamy at the state level, but because of the issues I have noted, I might then support a DOMA law specifically dealing with polygamy.



    So then you are questioning their sincerity? Okay, but that is certainly not a good reason to show disdain for the fact that innocent citizens are seeking and have received relief.

    It really does not matter whether they think they are rights or not. Congress can at anytime change or eliminate the benefits. It simply cannot give preference to certain classes of beneficiaries or deny them to others without a valid reason. I cannot imagine the courts would EVER interfere with Congressional authority in changing or eliminating benefits. There is no right to the benefits only a right of equal access to the benefits.

    Anyway, I welcome the decision. More freedom is better. The economic impact is insignificant and does no more damage to my liberty than does a heterosexual marriage if it does any damage at all.
    The issue at hand is that consenting adults should be left to handle decisions about divorce, inheritance, benefits, etc. That is why govt needs to get the heck out of people's personal business. If it weren't for government controls on so many other personal matters, this whole brouhaha over gay marriage would be non-existent. This whole issue is the government taking with one hand and giving with the other.

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    Re: New York appeals court strikes down Defense of Marriage Act

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    What strikes me as astoundingly ignorant is how anyone can say that every piece of legislation ever to be written and adopted in this nation was NOT a product of the popular vote. Whether it be by representation, or by appointment, you are a fool if you do not believe that a law came to be, ultimately by popular vote.

    Tim-
    Supreme Court rulings are not ruled by popular vote. A Supreme Court decision which says that denying same-sex couples the right to marry is unconstitutional would be a decision that is not left to popular vote, at least not by citizens of the United States.

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    Re: New York appeals court strikes down Defense of Marriage Act

    Quote Originally Posted by zstep18 View Post
    Supreme Court rulings are not ruled by popular vote. A Supreme Court decision which says that denying same-sex couples the right to marry is unconstitutional would be a decision that is not left to popular vote, at least not by citizens of the United States.


    And just appoints them to the court? Then ask yourself how the SCOTUS votes along party ideology and then revisit your objective analysys one more time. The majority decision comes to mind does it not?


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: New York appeals court strikes down Defense of Marriage Act

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    And just appoints them to the court? Then ask yourself how the SCOTUS votes along party ideology and then revisit your objective analysys one more time. The majority decision comes to mind does it not?


    Tim-
    When I think of 'popular vote' I usually think of US citizens deciding law, not a group of court justices.

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    Re: New York appeals court strikes down Defense of Marriage Act

    Quote Originally Posted by zstep18 View Post
    When I think of 'popular vote' I usually think of US citizens deciding law, not a group of court justices.
    You're being to short sighted. Yes we vote our representatives into office to hopefully represent our collective views. These reps in turn vote on legislation that more aptly represents our views, and then we vote for a President that suggests supreme court nominees and they are voted on by guess who; our representative government, AND almost exclusively along party lines, or political ideology.

    So wanna tell me again why you think the majority does not rule?


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: New York appeals court strikes down Defense of Marriage Act

    Despite the polls, despite the whining about so-called rights, despite the courts, when the people vote on the issue gay marriage loses. Generation after generation.

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    Re: New York appeals court strikes down Defense of Marriage Act

    Quote Originally Posted by jwzg View Post
    The issue at hand is that consenting adults should be left to handle decisions about divorce, inheritance, benefits, etc. That is why govt needs to get the heck out of people's personal business. If it weren't for government controls on so many other personal matters, this whole brouhaha over gay marriage would be non-existent. This whole issue is the government taking with one hand and giving with the other.
    uhhh yeah... save that for your science fiction book and send me a copy when you are done writing it. I mean, I love to think about off the wall ideas about society but only if they are fully baked.

    This is what I am talking about. You have completely misunderstood the argument about getting the government out of marriage.

    The issue is that consenting adults often fail to amicably handle decisions about divorce, inheritance, benefits, etc. Because of that the courts have to step in to settle disputes. Therefore, the courts and state do have SOME say in what sort of contracts they will enforce. The say they have should NOT have anything to do with forcing one person to live by the moral standards of another. They should not discriminate on the basis of race, sex, gender or creed. They must be able to reject certain contracts that are impossible to enforce or when enforcement would lead to a perversion of justice. That caveat does not apply to same sex marriage. Enforcing a contract between a man and a man is not more difficult than enforcing a contract between a woman and a man.

    Personally, I think if you want to live as man and wife and wife and wife and man you should be free to. But the state need not recognize your contract.

    Do you believe the state should allow marriages under Sharia or leave all dissolutions to Sharia courts?

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    Re: New York appeals court strikes down Defense of Marriage Act

    But again, if you can come up with some sort of legal framework to allow for polygamy then I say go to it. The courts cannot and so they should NOT intercede into state actions that deny recognition of polygamy. That is not their purpose. They can, will and should invalidate laws that deny equal protection of the laws.

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    Re: New York appeals court strikes down Defense of Marriage Act

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    You're being to short sighted. Yes we vote our representatives into office to hopefully represent our collective views. These reps in turn vote on legislation that more aptly represents our views, and then we vote for a President that suggests supreme court nominees and they are voted on by guess who; our representative government, AND almost exclusively along party lines, or political ideology.

    So wanna tell me again why you think the majority does not rule?


    Tim-
    Do Supreme Court Justices make decisions based on public opinion? No. They make decisions based on what the Constitution says and based on precedent.

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    Re: New York appeals court strikes down Defense of Marriage Act

    Quote Originally Posted by zstep18 View Post
    Do Supreme Court Justices make decisions based on public opinion? No. They make decisions based on what the Constitution says and based on precedent.
    Uh huh and that's why they're always split on the decisions usually down party ideology..

    Please, are you fo real dude?


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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