• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

French president pushing homework ban as part of ed reforms

PeteEU said:
They are in school from 8:30 to 5 to 6pm in the afternoon, and THEN there is football and homework on top of that...
Click to expand...

OK, let's pretend that French schools are in session for 9.5 hours/day (8:30 - 6) for 4 days a week, US is 8-4 (8 hours/day) 5 days a week. That's 38 hours/week in France and 40 hours/week in the US.

Ahh math, how I love you.
 
PeteEU said:
Nope, an American International School in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia... was lonnnnng ago though.
Click to expand...

Saudi Arabia!? And you think that accurately reflects the school system in America proper? Jeeze.
 
radcen said:
That may all be true, but artificially hindering the progress of students who can and do do well is simply discrimination in its own right.
Click to expand...

Eh? Who is artificially hindering anything? All he wants to do is not give homework to children who have a long ass day as it is! Like it or not, in Europe, we work to live, not live to work.

Plus, when people grow up to become world famous in their fields... and France has had their share in history, no doubt... it is precisely BECAUSE those individuals who could and would were allowed to excel, not because everybody in society was unnaturally manufactured to be the same.
Click to expand...

And who is going to prevent that by not giving out homework? Nothing is preventing parents or the students themselves to read books or learn after school..

Get a grip, this is nothing but another typical France bashing bull**** thread started because someone does not understand how things are done outside the good old USA.
 
Ikari said:
Saudi Arabia!? And you think that accurately reflects the school system in America proper? Jeeze.
Click to expand...

Considering it was run by the American community and companies, with American teachers and textbooks and an American curriculum... then yes! Hell my first English teacher came from Austin, Texas and had a very thick accent.. which later on pissed off my English Oxford trained teachers at the British school heh because I had learned that accent.
 
PeteEU said:
Considering it was run by the American community and companies, with American teachers and textbooks and an American curriculum... then yes! Hell my first English teacher came from Austin, Texas and had a very thick accent.. which later on pissed off my English Oxford trained teachers at the British school heh because I had learned that accent.
Click to expand...

I think you should go take a class on statistics.
 
PeteEU said:
Nope, an American International School in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia... was lonnnnng ago though.
Click to expand...

LOL. OK, I'm sure that's right in line with your typical suburban school in Denver. Wow.
 
Ikari said:
OK, let's pretend that French schools are in session for 9.5 hours/day (8:30 - 6) for 4 days a week, US is 8-4 (8 hours/day) 5 days a week. That's 38 hours/week in France and 40 hours/week in the US.

Ahh math, how I love you.
Click to expand...

Average school hours in the US is about 6.7 hours a day.

Average length of school year and average length of school day, by selected characteristics: United States, 2003–04

or

Chicago pushes longer school days as key to achievement: 'We had to do something' - U.S. News

The national average is 6.7 hours in school.
Click to expand...

That gives 33,5 hours a week on a 5 day week.

Yes I love math and the internet.

American school children on average leave school by 3pm. Now there are some schools who have longer hours, but they are not the average.
 
Erod said:
LOL. OK, I'm sure that's right in line with your typical suburban school in Denver. Wow.
Click to expand...

So now because the school was in another country, but run by Americans including the American government .. then suddenly it is not as good as some random school in the US? Talk about arrogance. Guess all those US expats and military personnel around the world with kids in local schools are screwing over their kids with sub-standard schooling because the school is not located in the US, but still uses American teachers, text-books and curriculum.
 
PeteEU said:
Eh? Who is artificially hindering anything? All he wants to do is not give homework to children who have a long ass day as it is! Like it or not, in Europe, we work to live, not live to work.

And who is going to prevent that by not giving out homework? Nothing is preventing parents or the students themselves to read books or learn after school..

Get a grip, this is nothing but another typical France bashing bull**** thread started because someone does not understand how things are done outside the good old USA.
Click to expand...
First, your French apologism is clearly clouding your comprehension and judgment skills. I cannot speak for others, but my post was about concept, not nationalism. France is merely the example at hand. Nothing more, nothing less.

Second, if you cannot see that lowering the bar for those who want to excel is the same as lowering the bar for everybody, then maybe you are a good example why other parts of the world are catching up to, and surpassing, Europe in many areas.

I'm very much a "work to live" person myself, probably to my own detriment at times, but I don't begrudge those who wish to go the extra step and scheme to pull them back to my level.
 
People need to understand what kind of government was just elected in France. I'm not surprised at this at all. This is how they tear at the fabric, a little nudge at a time. This isn't some typical PC going on, this is outright communistic principles in play. The goal is to develop a mindset among the masses that if you suck, don't worry, no one will ever know because the government will make it so that everyone else sucks right along with you.

Tim-
 
PeteEU said:
So now because the school was in another country, but run by Americans including the American government .. then suddenly it is not as good as some random school in the US? Talk about arrogance. Guess all those US expats and military personnel around the world with kids in local schools are screwing over their kids with sub-standard schooling because the school is not located in the US, but still uses American teachers, text-books and curriculum.
Click to expand...

"American teachers, textbooks, and curriculum".

There is no such thing. That's what socialists don't understand about capitalistic countries. There is no mandated official textbook or curriculum (at least not yet, God help us).

People here have the choice, opportunity, and freedom to seek out an advanced, stringent, specific, and family-driven approach to education, which does create a difference in graduates in the end. It's called competition, and if your parents, and you, don't give a crap about your education, you're going to be left behind by some. Your education won't be equal to others, regardless of what "diploma" you are given.

Capitalists focus on encouraging the achievers. Others focus on bringing everyone to the same level as the lowest common denominator.
 
PeteEU said:
So now because the school was in another country, but run by Americans including the American government .. then suddenly it is not as good as some random school in the US? Talk about arrogance. Guess all those US expats and military personnel around the world with kids in local schools are screwing over their kids with sub-standard schooling because the school is not located in the US, but still uses American teachers, text-books and curriculum.
Click to expand...

It's one data point for a school not even in the US.
 
PeteEU said:
So now because the school was in another country, but run by Americans including the American government .. then suddenly it is not as good as some random school in the US? Talk about arrogance. Guess all those US expats and military personnel around the world with kids in local schools are screwing over their kids with sub-standard schooling because the school is not located in the US, but still uses American teachers, text-books and curriculum.
Click to expand...
you are correct
the American schools in foreign countries tend to be quite good
The school day in France typically runs from 8 a.m. to 4 p.m., with a half day on Saturday, although students do not attend school on Wednesday or Sunday. Lunch is a two-hour break for public school students. Students usually attend school from ages 6 to 18. The average number of students per class is 23. Uniforms are not required, but religious dress of any kind is banned. The school year for this country in the northern hemisphere stretches from August to June, and is divided into four seven-week terms, with one to two weeks of vacation in between.


Students in the primary grades, from age’s 6 to 11, learn basic skills in reading, writing, and math, as well as participate in exercises to develop observation, reasoning, imagination, and physical abilities. Older students study French, math, physical and natural sciences, foreign language, history and geography, economics, and civics.
Click to expand...
now let's look at who we are competing against:
The school year in South Korea typically runs from March to February. The year is divided into two semesters (March to July and September to February). School days are from 8 a.m. to 4 p.m., but many stay later into the evening. In addition, students help clean up their classroom before leaving. Most students remain in the same room while their teachers rotate throughout the day. Each room has about thirty students with ten computers for them to share.


After 5 p.m. students have a short dinner at home, or eat at school, before study sessions or other activities begin in the evening. Students attend school Monday to Friday, with some Saturday classes scattered throughout the year. Their classes cover the Korean language, math, science, physical education, social studies, moral education, music, fine and practical arts. In third grade students begin receiving English instruction for two hours a week.
Click to expand...
Most Japanese schools run on a trimester schedule. The academic year begins in April and ends the following March, with breaks for summer, winter and spring separating the three terms. Uniforms are required and there are extensive rules for hair styles, shoes, socks, skirt length, make-up, accessories, and more.


In each classroom, the average number of students is 29 with five or six computers to share between them. Students in Japan study academic subjects, such as Japanese language, math, reading, social studies, music, and art, and they also receive moral education. Moral education involves teaching students about health and safety, living a disciplined life, courtesy, understanding and confidence, public manners, and environmental awareness.
Click to expand...
Because China is in the northern hemisphere, its summer months are in line with Asia, Europe, and North America. The school year in China typically runs from the beginning of September to mid-July. Summer vacation is generally spent in summer classes or studying for entrance exams. The average school day runs from 7:30 a.m. to 5 p.m., with a two-hour lunch break. Formal education in China lasts for nine years. China provides all students with uniforms, but does not require they be worn.


There are about 21 students in each classroom. All Chinese students study from textbooks that emphasize China’s unity, past and present accomplishments, and its future. Students in China also have great access to computer technology, with a computer to student ratio of 1:2. Chinese language and math skills are tested at the end of each year. Math is typically taught by drill, which means students are repeatedly taught the basics of math until they are able to demonstrate comprehension. Education in China since the turn of the 21st century has been undergoing reform, with curriculum being redesigned to emphasize group activities and other methods believed to foster creativity and innovation.
Click to expand...
School Years around the World — Infoplease.com
 
I found this (it's actually hard to find one source for world school day comparisons)

China and India are important comparisons, but other countries could provide even greater insight into whether U.S. students are spending as much time in school, particularly countries that typically score high on international assessments, such as Korea, Japan, Finland, and Canada, as well as economic competitors such as England, France, Germany, and Italy. The data set that allows us to do this comes from the OECD. It does not include the number of school days, but looks directly at required instructional hours.

According to the OECD, the hours of compulsory instruction per year in these countries range from 608 hours in Finland (a top performer) to 926 hours in France (average) at the elementary level, compared to the over 900 hours required in California, New York, Texas, and Massachusetts. Of particular note, no state requires as few hours as Finland, even though Finland scores near the top of nearly every international assessment. As a matter of fact, Vermont – a high-performing state7 -- requires the fewest number of hours (700 hours) for its elementary students (grades 1-2) than any other state, and it still requires more than Finland. Vermont’s requirement is also more than the 612 hours high-achieving Korea requires of its early elementary students. Moreover, all but 5 states require more hours of instruction at the early elementary school level than the OECD countries8 average of 759 hours.

At the middle school level, total hours of instruction range from 777 hours in Finland (a top performer) to 1001 in Italy (an average performer). Three of our 5 large states, New York (990 hours), Texas (1,260 hours), and Massachusetts (990 hours) would rank near the top of all industrialized nations in number of hours required. California and Florida would rank near the middle at 900 hours but still above the OECD average of 886 hours. It should be noted that even at the middle school level, countries like Japan and Korea require fewer hours (868 and 867 respectively) than most U.S. states. So by the 8th grade, students in most U.S. states have been required to receive more hours of instruction than students in most industrialized countries, including high-performing Finland, Japan, and Korea.

In most countries, there is a significant increase in the time students are required to be in school at the high school level. In the U.S., most states require the same number of hours in high school as in middle school. Just as they did at middle school level, Finland (856 hours) and Italy (1,089 hours) required the fewest and most hours of instruction respectively. Italy’s 1,089 hours surpasses all but 2 out of our 5 selected states. Texas requires 1,260 hours of instruction at the high school level, while California requires 1,080 hours. Korea requires 1,020 hours of instruction at the high school level. Nearly half (22) the states require more instructional hours than Korea. Moreover, the vast majority of states (42) require more hours of instruction than the OECD average of 902 hours. Again, there’s no evidence that students in other countries are required to receive more instruction than students in the United States.
Click to expand...

Time in school: How does the U.S. compare?
 
Erod said:
"American teachers, textbooks, and curriculum".

There is no such thing. That's what socialists don't understand about capitalistic countries. There is no mandated official textbook or curriculum (at least not yet, God help us).
Click to expand...

Horse**** and you know it. Most school districts use text books from certain major states... Texas was the source of my text books... that was before they went bat crazy on Jesus in that state.

People here have the choice, opportunity, and freedom to seek out an advanced, stringent, specific, and family-driven approach to education, which does create a difference in graduates in the end. It's called competition, and if your parents, and you, don't give a crap about your education, you're going to be left behind by some. Your education won't be equal to others, regardless of what "diploma" you are given.

Capitalists focus on encouraging the achievers. Others focus on bringing everyone to the same level as the lowest common denominator.
Click to expand...

talk about arrogance.. you seriously believe that the US is superior to others dont you? Pathetic nationalistic arrogance.
 
radcen said:
First, your French apologism is clearly clouding your comprehension and judgment skills.
Click to expand...

LOL French apologism? I point out a fact, and suddenly I am a French apologist?

I cannot speak for others, but my post was about concept, not nationalism. France is merely the example at hand. Nothing more, nothing less.
Click to expand...

The whole thread was based on an attack Hollande and France pure and simple. Hollande wants to change the french system after Sarkozy's gutting of the system.. and one of those changes is not to have homework. Big deal.

Now on the concept, that we can discuss. More school hours, less homework... there are different results world wide. Finland has low school hours and yet perform better than most. Japan has high school hours and demands (which brings high suicide rates among students btw) but also brings good results.

Second, if you cannot see that lowering the bar for those who want to excel is the same as lowering the bar for everybody, then maybe you are a good example why other parts of the world are catching up to, and surpassing, Europe in many areas.
Click to expand...

Horse**** on so many fronts. No one is lowering the bar. The exams will be the same, and the demands the same. All they are doing is removing homework and doing that in schools instead most likely. So freaking what? As for the world catching up to Europe and surpassing.. yes, that happens when the rest of the world gets an education system it did not have before... but Europe is still ahead on the US according to most metrics in education.. ups.

What you and other Americans dont seem to understand is that French children leave school at 5 to 6 pm, and then have to do a couple of hours of homework.. so when are they suppose to play and be social with other kids... from 8 to 9 when they have to goto bed? Point is, French school children have long hours.. yes only 4 days a week thanks to Sarkozy, but they have very long hours compared to other nations. There education is highly concentrated, vs other countries that have 5 or 6 days a week but much fewer hours a day.

I'm very much a "work to live" person myself, probably to my own detriment at times, but I don't begrudge those who wish to go the extra step and scheme to pull them back to my level.
Click to expand...

Congrats, then you are an European!
 
Last edited:
So, what brings this about? Did the Islamists make this demand and the French President capitulated?
 
Why can't this work you can easily just do things in class, it truly isn't that hard. They also want children to do homework in class so that the teacher can help them aswell. We had to debate this in my French class.
 
PeteEU said:
The whole thread was based on an attack Hollande and France pure and simple.
Click to expand...
Would it make you feel better if we pretended it was Namibia, instead? :roll:

Geez, if you can't grasp concept over butt-hurt nationalism, there's really no point in even attempting to discuss.
 
my problem with this portion of the french education reforms is the underlying premise

students who have parents who coach them with their homework out-perform students without such parental support
voila, eliminate the homework and the accompanying parental assistance and the high performing kids will become lower performing students like those with little parental involvement
is that really an objective france needs to be seeking

in the USA there is a huge digital divide. the haves enjoy access to computers and the internet at home
the have nots only have access to the school library - when they are in school
that is a massive advantage for the students with computer resources
if we were going to apply this french reform 'logic', we would prohibit the students who have access to a computer and the web the use of those resources the have nots are without
 
Rainman05 said:
Ok.

Everybody PAY ATTENTION. THIS is a socialist measure through and through.
Click to expand...

Dumbing down is the best way to create more socialists, but you can bet that the elites won't be paying much attention to these changes.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom