Page 4 of 10 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 97

Thread: Landmark calif. Burger joint forced to shut down over ada lawsuit

  1. #31
    Guru
    Muddy Creek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Last Seen
    04-05-13 @ 09:02 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    3,103

    Re: Landmark calif. Burger joint forced to shut down over ada lawsuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    Section 1 is relevant to this particular case because I have not seen any evidence that the owner has, in the last 22 years done additional construction or renovation to the building. Until that occurs, the building is grandfathered in because it was in place "as-is" prior to the ADA statute going into effect.

    Since the building is not owned or operated by a governmental agency, there is no requirement to retrofit the building unless it is being otherwise renovated. I happen to live in a part of the country where a good number of our buildings were built prior to the Civil War, nevermind 1990. Many of them house private business', and it's probably about 50/50 whether they've been made handicapped accessible in the last two decades.
    Quote it. The section of "grandfathering in" Show the link with the page, too. I honestly don't see this
    Alex Carey:

    ... the 20th century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: The growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.

    Australian social scientist, quoted by Noam Chomsky in World Orders Old and New

  2. #32
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:14 PM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,605

    Re: Landmark calif. Burger joint forced to shut down over ada lawsuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy Creek View Post
    Show me where you are getting the facilities "failure to remove" and how this affects the rights of the disabled to access public places
    I linked to the law, and quoted from it. Thus, you are "shown." It is not my problem you don't understand it, as you've proven over several posts.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  3. #33
    Guru
    Muddy Creek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Last Seen
    04-05-13 @ 09:02 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    3,103

    Re: Landmark calif. Burger joint forced to shut down over ada lawsuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    That's just plain stupid.

    The law is what is operative (or "pertinent"), not "guidelines." One is not sued over "guidelines," they're sued according the law. One is not beholden to "guidelines"; one is beholden to the law.

    I guess you really DON'T know the difference. This is ridiculously idiotic.
    Actually, the ACT, while the law, just sets out what is legal. The agency then uses those terms to construct their guidelines which are based upon the law.

    Obviously, you have never worked for a massive government program which exists BECAUSE of the Act, but has changes because of lawsuits to the act.

    Apparently, this part of the ADA that the lawyer is suing is right in line with the LAW of the ADA.
    Alex Carey:

    ... the 20th century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: The growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.

    Australian social scientist, quoted by Noam Chomsky in World Orders Old and New

  4. #34
    Guru
    Muddy Creek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Last Seen
    04-05-13 @ 09:02 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    3,103

    Re: Landmark calif. Burger joint forced to shut down over ada lawsuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    I linked to the law, and quoted from it. Thus, you are "shown." It is not my problem you don't understand it, as you've proven over several posts.
    You still failed to prove that this was not readily achievable to this restaurant in the past 22 years.
    Alex Carey:

    ... the 20th century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: The growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.

    Australian social scientist, quoted by Noam Chomsky in World Orders Old and New

  5. #35
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:14 PM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,605

    Re: Landmark calif. Burger joint forced to shut down over ada lawsuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy Creek View Post
    You still failed to prove that this was not readily achievable to this restaurant in the past 22 years.
    You're just changing the subject away from your massive fail.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  6. #36
    Guru
    Muddy Creek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Last Seen
    04-05-13 @ 09:02 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    3,103

    Re: Landmark calif. Burger joint forced to shut down over ada lawsuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    You're just changing the subject away from your massive fail.
    No, just pointing out that your quote had nothing to do with the topic at hand.
    Alex Carey:

    ... the 20th century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: The growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.

    Australian social scientist, quoted by Noam Chomsky in World Orders Old and New

  7. #37
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    New England
    Last Seen
    05-01-14 @ 03:29 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    12,879

    Re: Landmark calif. Burger joint forced to shut down over ada lawsuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy Creek View Post
    Quote it. The section of "grandfathering in" Show the link with the page, too. I honestly don't see this
    Here's the entire Section 12183, which is applicable to what we're talking about....

    Sec. 12183. New construction and alterations in public accommodations and commercial facilities
    (a) Application of term

    Except as provided in subsection (b) of this section, as applied to public accommodations and commercial facilities, discrimination for purposes of section 12182(a) of this title includes

    (1) a failure to design and construct facilities for first occupancy later than 30 months after July 26, 1990, that are readily accessible to and usable by individuals with disabilities, except where an entity can demonstrate that it is structurally impracticable to meet the requirements of such subsection in accordance with standards set forth or incorporated by reference in regulations issued under this subchapter; and

    (2) with respect to a facility or part thereof that is altered by, on behalf of, or for the use of an establishment in a manner that affects or could affect the usability of the facility or part thereof, a failure to make alterations in such a manner that, to the maximum extent feasible, the altered portions of the facility are readily accessible to and usable by individuals with disabilities, including individuals who use wheelchairs. Where the entity is undertaking an alteration that affects or could affect usability of or access to an area of the facility containing a primary function, the entity shall also make the alterations in such a manner that, to the maximum extent feasible, the path of travel to the altered area and the bathrooms, telephones, and drinking fountains serving the altered area, are readily accessible to and usable by individuals with disabilities where such alterations to the path of travel or the bathrooms, telephones, and drinking fountains serving the altered area are not disproportionate to the overall alterations in terms of cost and scope (as determined under criteria established by the Attorney General).

    (b) Elevator

    Subsection (a) of this section shall not be construed to require the installation of an elevator for facilities that are less than three stories or have less than 3,000 square feet per story unless the building is a shopping center, a shopping mall, or the professional office of a health care provider or unless the Attorney General determines that a particular category of such facilities requires the installation of elevators based on the usage of such facilities.
    and the link, which was already provided by Harshaw.... Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990,AS AMENDED with ADA Amendments Act of 2008

    Please refer to the bolded text in subsection a, paragraph 1. The building in question was already occupied on January 26, 1990. Therefore the section does not apply to it, unless the provisions of subsection b come into play. Since the building has not been renovated or altered since January 26, 1990 the entire section does not apply to the business or building in question.

  8. #38
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:14 PM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,605

    Re: Landmark calif. Burger joint forced to shut down over ada lawsuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy Creek View Post
    No, just pointing out that your quote had nothing to do with the topic at hand.
    That, too, is stupid. It had everything to do with your claims.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  9. #39
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:14 PM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,605

    Re: Landmark calif. Burger joint forced to shut down over ada lawsuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    Here's the entire Section 12183, which is applicable to what we're talking about....



    and the link, which was already provided by Harshaw.... Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990,AS AMENDED with ADA Amendments Act of 2008

    Please refer to the bolded text in subsection a, paragraph 1. The building in question was already occupied on January 26, 1990. Therefore the section does not apply to it, unless the provisions of subsection b come into play. Since the building has not been renovated or altered since January 26, 1990 the entire section does not apply to the business or building in question.
    The other section which may apply:

    (2) Specific prohibitions

    (A) Discrimination

    For purposes of subsection (a) of this section, discrimination includes

    (i) the imposition or application of eligibility criteria that screen out or tend to screen out an individual with a disability or any class of individuals with disabilities from fully and equally enjoying any goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations, unless such criteria can be shown to be necessary for the provision of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations being offered;

    (ii) a failure to make reasonable modifications in policies, practices, or procedures, when such modifications are necessary to afford such goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations to individuals with disabilities, unless the entity can demonstrate that making such modifications would fundamentally alter the nature of such goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations;

    (iii) a failure to take such steps as may be necessary to ensure that no individual with a disability is excluded, denied services, segregated or otherwise treated differently than other individuals because of the absence of auxiliary aids and services, unless the entity can demonstrate that taking such steps would fundamentally alter the nature of the good, service, facility, privilege, advantage, or accommodation being offered or would result in an undue burden;

    (iv) a failure to remove architectural barriers, and communication barriers that are structural in nature, in existing facilities, and transportation barriers in existing vehicles and rail passenger cars used by an establishment for transporting individuals (not including barriers that can only be removed through the retrofitting of vehicles or rail passenger cars by the installation of a hydraulic or other lift), where such removal is readily achievable; and

    (v) where an entity can demonstrate that the removal of a barrier under clause (iv) is not readily achievable, a failure to make such goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations available through alternative methods if such methods are readily achievable.
    As already noted.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  10. #40
    Sage
    AliHajiSheik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:19 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    6,386

    Re: Landmark calif. Burger joint forced to shut down over ada lawsuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy Creek View Post
    And yet, there are guidelines for businesses who find this access to difficult to do.

    ADA: The Limits of Accommodation
    A guideline that is easily challenge because the law is so vague.

    From your own quote: "There is no monetary limit on accommodation." We're talking about an old burger joint and any bored individual for whatever reasons can challenge the interpretation based on a vague law and even more vague "guidelines."

Page 4 of 10 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •