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Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

Hairytic said:
Nothing I said defended the horrific practice of killing children for speaking up for their own freedom. My response was to those who seem to think that the Arab Spring should have made everythng in the middle east better over night. Change never takes place over night. It will take years of struggle. We call it sufferage movements.
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Look, no offense... it is simply a stupid analogy that you are trying to make. Seriously.
 
tessaesque said:
So you're justifying the killing of a little girl and condemning those who would speak out against it.

Got it.
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Either you can't read very well or you are twisting the point I am trying to make. I don't agree with what the Taliban did. I simply said that change does not happen over night. We shouldn't claim that everyone in the middle east is against change. I am just pointing out the reality of the situation. There will be many horrible things done by the taliban to stop change. The same thing happened in our country, people fighting to stop others from having their equal rights.
 
Gardener said:
For starters, Pakistanis are not Arab.

But if you wish to continue to defend the Taliban through these disgusting comparisons, be my guest. Some might question your motivation for defending the Taliban's intentional shooting of a little girl by comparing it to women voting in this country, though.
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I never defended the Taliban. My response was to someone talking about how Afghanies reacted to the changes taking place in their country. The reality of the situation is that several groups throughout the middle east are fighting for their freedom and trying to bring about change. This change will not happen over night. I think the Taliban are horrible people who should be hung up by their toe nails and be made to suffer for what they have done.
 
Bodhisattva said:
You can't be honestly comparing not allowing women the vote to killing children, can you?

You can't be honestly comparing a fringe group here in the United States to a nation wide philosophy and culture over there, can you?
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I made the comparison to make a point that change takes place through sufferage movements. THe girl who got shot is a hero because he dared to stand up for her own freedom. There will be many fallen heros during this sufferage movement in Pakistan, and that is a sad reality. I hate what the Taliban is doing.
 
Hairytic said:
Nothing I said defended the horrific practice of killing children for speaking up for their own freedom. My response was to those who seem to think that the Arab Spring should have made everythng in the middle east better over night. Change never takes place over night. It will take years of struggle. We call it sufferage movements.
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You're already several steps behind, in seeing what the actual inherrent problems are in the ME. You try to equate Muslim terrorists with Judeo-Christian culture, as it was here, 100-200 years ago. Judeo-Christian culture spread along with western democracy, thus already had a basis on which to make progress with regard to human rights, just as we have seen happen concurrently, in other western democratic societies. The problem in some of the ME region cultures, is that they can't separate their religion from their politics. This is a deeply ingrained problem which will not be resolved for quite some time to come, and it may be that it won't be resolved absent outside force.
It remains to be seen what the Arab Spring will result in long term. I personally don't expect much besides a reversion to what is familiar and secure to them.

Your comparison is invalid.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Look, no offense... it is simply a stupid analogy that you are trying to make. Seriously.
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I view history in an attempt to see how people react to change. Our own history can help us to realize how hard it will befor the Pakistani people and the people in many countries fighting for their freedom. What they are going through is very similar to what we went through in our own history. We can't expect everything to change over night. The Taliban will have to be defeated and they will not go out quietly. I view the girl who got shot as a true hero to the sufferage movement they are going through.
 
lizzie said:
You're already several steps behind, in seeing what the actual inherrent problems are in the ME. You try to equate Muslim terrorists with Judeo-Christian culture, as it was here, 100-200 years ago. Judeo-Christian culture spread along with western democracy, thus already had a basis on which to make progress with regard to human rights, just as we have seen happen concurrently, in other western democratic societies. The problem in some of the ME region cultures, is that they can't separate their religion from their politics. This is a deeply ingrained problem which will not be resolved for quite some time to come, and it may be that it won't be resolved absent outside force.
It remains to be seen what the Arab Spring will result in long term. I personally don't expect much besides a reversion to what is familiar and secure to them.

Your comparison is invalid.
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I have to disagree, because religion was very much embeded in our political culture early on. There were fights in congress over the role of relgion and government to the point of people becoming violent and beating one another to near death. Religious groups faught ther religious groups causing death and atrosities. We like to think our history is such that we declared our freedom and everything went smoothly to bring that about. Seperation of church and state has been such a big issue in this country that when JFK was elected, he was the first Irish Catholic elected to office. It seems silly today, but that was a very big deal in the 60s. One's religon was a big consideration among voters in this country, and still is in many respects today. There have been groups that have wanted to rule this country baed on the bible from the begining and there are still people who would like to see that happen today.
 
Hairytic said:
I have to disagree, because religion was very much embeded in our political culture early on. There were fights in congress over the role of relgion and government to the point of people becoming violent and beating one another to near death. Religious groups faught ther religious groups causing death and atrosities. We like to think our history is such that we declared our freedom and everything went smoothly to bring that about. Seperation of church and state has been such a big issue in this country that when JFK was elected, he was the first Irish Catholic elected to office. It seems silly today, but that was a very big deal in the 60s. One's religon was a big consideration among voters in this country, and still is in many respects today. There have been groups that have wanted to rule this country baed on the bible from the begining and there are still people who would like to see that happen today.
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Religion was embedded in our culture, but our political culture was separate from religion itself. This seems like a small thing, but when your politics and religion are the very same thing, the issue is huge to overcome.
 
Hairytic said:
I made the comparison to make a point that change takes place through sufferage movements. THe girl who got shot is a hero because he dared to stand up for her own freedom. There will be many fallen heros during this sufferage movement in Pakistan, and that is a sad reality. I hate what the Taliban is doing.
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I understand and I think that some here are lashing out at you unfairly... but the comparison's are not fair. I could say that kids have it tough growing up and compare my kids and the time outs they get and the reflection chair that we discuss the matter in to a kid that gets beaten with a wrench by his father and then sees his father pass out drunk. It isn't a fair or accurate comparison.

Sure we had some tough times over here. Comparing slavery to what they are doing over there is apt, but not voting.

Also, as lizzie points out there is a culture difference. We had human rights. We had democracy. Not for all but that was only a racial thing, really. The Taliban is denying human rights for it's own people. They are a terrorist organization and tyranical group as was Idi Amin, Pol Pot and Hitler.
 
Hairytic said:
I have to disagree, because religion was very much embeded in our political culture early on. There were fights in congress over the role of relgion and government to the point of people becoming violent and beating one another to near death. Religious groups faught ther religious groups causing death and atrosities. We like to think our history is such that we declared our freedom and everything went smoothly to bring that about. Seperation of church and state has been such a big issue in this country that when JFK was elected, he was the first Irish Catholic elected to office. It seems silly today, but that was a very big deal in the 60s. One's religon was a big consideration among voters in this country, and still is in many respects today. There have been groups that have wanted to rule this country baed on the bible from the begining and there are still people who would like to see that happen today.
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The difference is that we had democratic and republican heritage (Greeks and Romans) as our basis. We had the Enlightenment. They have nothing of the sort. Their glory days are well over a thousand years gone by and they are not moving forward. The Arab Spring was a great head line but the reality is that even though they want freedom they don't seem to have a clue as to how they should go about it.

I am not saying I am great... I was born lucky into a great society. They have it tough but they should at least try to give the power to the people.
 
You're a brave girl Malala. My thoughts are with you, your family and supporters. I hope you recover fully, and continue to be such a shining example for many years to come.

You have a long struggle ahead, but with people like you fighting so hard for your basic human rights, at least there is hope.
 
lizzie said:
Religion was embedded in our culture, but our political culture was separate from religion itself. This seems like a small thing, but when your politics and religion are the very same thing, the issue is huge to overcome.
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Religion wasn't seperate for a long time in our culture. Most of our history has been a struggle to get religion out of politics. It is more seperate today than ever in our history, but there are still people in this country that try to get religion back into politics. Seperation of church and state has always been a power struggle for us. That is just the way it is.
 
Hairytic said:
Religion wasn't seperate for a long time in our culture. Most of our history has been a struggle to get religion out of politics. It is more seperate today than ever in our history, but there are still people in this country that try to get religion back into politics. Seperation of church and state has always been a power struggle for us. That is just the way it is.
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Religion was always separate from politics in this country. That is the reason we have the separation of church and state. The people may be a religious people, but the government is secular.
 
Hairytic said:
Religion wasn't seperate for a long time in our culture. Most of our history has been a struggle to get religion out of politics. It is more seperate today than ever in our history, but there are still people in this country that try to get religion back into politics. Seperation of church and state has always been a power struggle for us. That is just the way it is.
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The fact that you don't see the very obvious and inherent difference between U.S. history and the history of Muslim governments is absolutely astounding. The fact that you keep clinging to that idiotic comparison is actually quite hilarious.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I understand and I think that some here are lashing out at you unfairly... but the comparison's are not fair. I could say that kids have it tough growing up and compare my kids and the time outs they get and the reflection chair that we discuss the matter in to a kid that gets beaten with a wrench by his father and then sees his father pass out drunk. It isn't a fair or accurate comparison.

Sure we had some tough times over here. Comparing slavery to what they are doing over there is apt, but not voting.

Also, as lizzie points out there is a culture difference. We had human rights. We had democracy. Not for all but that was only a racial thing, really. The Taliban is denying human rights for it's own people. They are a terrorist organization and tyranical group as was Idi Amin, Pol Pot and Hitler.
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Wen you look back on US history and see how women were treated until recently and how minorities have been treated. Then you look how long it took to get equal rights for women and minorities, you can see that our struggle with freedom hasn't been a simpe or easy road. I don't expect the struggle under Taliban rule will be any less difficult. Women in our country used to be treated a property and their treatment was a matter of religious values. Minorities gined the right to vote, but were not allowed to exercise that right in the south until the 60s. I am simply pointing out that freedom and equal rights wasn't easy to gain in this country and it won't be easy to gain half a world away.
 
Hairytic said:
Wen you look back on US history and see how women were treated until recently and how minorities have been treated. Then you look how long it took to get equal rights for women and minorities, you can see that our struggle with freedom hasn't been a simpe or easy road. I don't expect the struggle under Taliban rule will be any less difficult.
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You are apparently not understanding the points we have been making. It will likely be much MORE difficult in Afghanistan. They do not have the cultural history which facilitates freedom or progress, specifically in the arena of human rights. There is no logical comparison between the two.
 
Bodhisattva said:
The difference is that we had democratic and republican heritage (Greeks and Romans) as our basis. We had the Enlightenment. They have nothing of the sort. Their glory days are well over a thousand years gone by and they are not moving forward. The Arab Spring was a great head line but the reality is that even though they want freedom they don't seem to have a clue as to how they should go about it.

I am not saying I am great... I was born lucky into a great society. They have it tough but they should at least try to give the power to the people.
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The freedom loving people in the ME and that general area will be a struggle not much different than our own struggle for freedom. If you study US history, you will see that all Americans didn't want anything to do with the revolution. Once we won our independence, things didn't just fall into place perfectly. Agianing freedom and equal rights is a hard struggle, and once we get it, it is also a struggle to keep it.
They have many role models to go by. They too have people who are enlightened. Now they show the willingness to risk their lives to bring about freedom. I see it as a good thing.
 
Hairytic said:
The interesting thing about history is, it shows how people go through the process of change. We didn't transition to change so well either. Women were not even allowed to vote until 1920, and we had to fight for that right. It isn't exactly fair to expect people to do better than we did when government and culture starts to go through a major change.
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Murder apologist for the Taliban; got it.
 
Hairytic said:
The bomb in Birmingham blew up when children were starting to come to Sunday school. The timing would indicate that children were being targeted. My point has nothing to do with excusing anyone for these horrible actions. What I am saying is, we can't expect the Middle East to do a better job than we did when our country went through the same changes their country is going through. It took us well over 200 years to have equal rights. Some people are expecting the Arab Spring to improve everyone's lives in the Middle East over night. That is an unrealistic expectation.
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This doesn't have anything to do with the Arab Spring. Afghans are not Arab. And Afghanistan isn't in the Middle East.
 
lizzie said:
You are apparently not understanding the points we have been making. It will likely be much MORE difficult in Afghanistan. They do not have the cultural history which facilitates freedom or progress, specifically in the arena of human rights. There is no logical comparison between the two.
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Nor does Afghanistan have a history of the Taliban's extreme Islamism. Such extreme fundmentalism and acts of barbarism are as new to Afghans as ultra liberal Western ideals. There is no inherent cultural flaw in the Afghan people that dictates they can't handle a more moderate government. In fact, Afghans did just that during most of the 20th century until all hell broke loose in the Socialist coup by the PDPA in '78.
 
the_recruit said:
Nor does Afghanistan have a history of the Taliban's extreme Islamism. Such extreme fundmentalism and acts of barbarism are as new to Afghans as ultra liberal Western ideals. There is no inherent cultural flaw in the Afghan people that dictates they can't handle a more moderate government. In fact, Afghans did just that during most of the 20th century until all hell broke loose in the Socialist coup by the PDPA in '78.
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Well, back around 30 year ago, things were better in Afghanistan than they are today, but not democratic nor free by western standards at all. Wome were treated like possessions then, as they are now. Men did enjoy some measure of freedom and social pleasure, but overall, not much has changed in any meaningful way, with the exception of escalation of violence and savagery toward anyone who dares defy authority figures.
 
lizzie said:
Well, back around 30 year ago, things were better in Afghanistan than they are today, but not democratic nor free by western standards at all. Wome were treated like possessions then, as they are now. Men did enjoy some measure of freedom and social pleasure, but overall, not much has changed in any meaningful way, with the exception of escalation of violence and savagery toward anyone who dares defy authority figures.
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Then let's set the sights a little lower and aim for that instead of just saying "**** 'em all". I don't think even the neocons expect Afghanistan to blossom into the world's leading role model for democracy and liberal values. But they can do better, and have done so, than the barbarism of the Taliban.
 
the_recruit said:
Then let's set the sights a little lower and aim for that instead of just saying "**** 'em all". I don't think even the neocons expect Afghanistan to blossom into the world's leading role model for democracy and liberal values. But they can do better, and have done so, than the barbarism of the Taliban.
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I'm not saying **** 'em all. I'm saying let them handle their own problems, and how about we stop trying to save the world, and remake it in our own image.
 
lizzie said:
I'm not saying **** 'em all. I'm saying let them handle their own problems, and how about we stop trying to save the world, and remake it in our own image.
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Sometimes "the people" can't. The notion that oppressed people need just rise up and free themselves of their bonds is, frankly, naive and often wrong. Successful revolutions without foreign assistance are rare, as demonstrated throughout history and even current events today. The Socialist revolt in Afghanistan never would have succeeded without Soviet intervention and, ironically, the Mujahideen resistance against the Soviet intervention never would have succeeded without heavy US and Saudi assistance.

Or look at the Arab Spring. The reason Egypt and Tunisia successfully overturned their governments without war is because the government willfully stepped aside rather than engage in widespread violence and suppression of its people. On the other hand, in countries like Libya and Syria where the government is prepared to conduct terrible violence on its people, revolutions are not so successful. It's no mystery which kind of government the Taliban are. Polls show support for the Taliban among Afghans is at an all time low, 30% or so I believe.

I for one am willing to invest some US tax dollars (gasp!) on selective interventions toward human rights and/or stable governments across the world.
 
joko104 said:
The Marine squad leader we know who was in the Helman District came to have a VERY low opinion of the Afghani people, who he saw as dedicated to deliberately remaining ignorant. He recalled talking to one and asking him wouldn't he like for his son to have an education and improve his life. The man replied no, that some day his son would have his sheep herd like he had from his father, so his son's life was determined when he was born, such is the will of Allah.

The longer he was there, the less he liked them and the more he didn't care what happened to them.
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I heard the same thing from those who served in Somalia.
 
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