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Thread: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

  1. #51
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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    Quote Originally Posted by Hairytic View Post
    Wen you look back on US history and see how women were treated until recently and how minorities have been treated. Then you look how long it took to get equal rights for women and minorities, you can see that our struggle with freedom hasn't been a simpe or easy road. I don't expect the struggle under Taliban rule will be any less difficult. Women in our country used to be treated a property and their treatment was a matter of religious values. Minorities gined the right to vote, but were not allowed to exercise that right in the south until the 60s. I am simply pointing out that freedom and equal rights wasn't easy to gain in this country and it won't be easy to gain half a world away.
    I don't want to add to the dog-pile, but I'm going to because I just can't ignore the blatantly disingenous comparison of women only gaining the vote 100 years into a 200-year old country, and civil rights struggles 50 years ago with a country that refuses to educate their female children, and has repeatedly murdered said female children, often by locking them inside the school house and burning them alive.

    Females in America have been "allowed" education since the 18th century. No females that I know of have every been slaughtered for trying to learn to read. Slavery was bad, mkay? But comparing 19th century slavery to the wanton slaughter of entire villages that do not adhere to an extreme jihadist tenant that treats women as disposable property, able to be legally murdered at will by ANY male who feels like doing the deed to the fact that women have "only" had the vote for 100 years is utterly laughable.

    You don't "expect the struggle under Taliban rule will be any less difficult"? Are you joking? Women have been educated in this country since its inception. Although slaves were "property" until the Civil War, "women" were not. Comparing those social struggles over the past century to the oppressive barbarism that is Taliban rule in Afghanistan and Pakistan is akin to comparing the fact that women and minorities were not allowed to vote until the 20th century to the horror of the holocaust... and finding them equal!!

    I'm truly astounded.

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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    This was Afghanistan before the Islamists took over.

    Afghanistan - 50 years ago - YouTube

    We're seeing the same thing in the Middle East.

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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    In 1984 I traveled to Kabul on business. I met some really sweet people there. A lot of the population (100% SPECULATION) are ignorant and even worthless. But then there are the better ones who are helpless against such vicious assholes.

    So, there's a side of me that feels for the nice ones trapped there and another side that doesn't want to make sacrifices for the not so useful ones. On balance, I think it's time to go home.

  4. #54
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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    Quote Originally Posted by the_recruit View Post
    Sometimes "the people" can't. The notion that oppressed people need just rise up and free themselves of their bonds is, frankly, naive and often wrong. Successful revolutions without foreign assistance are rare, as demonstrated throughout history and even current events today. The Socialist revolt in Afghanistan never would have succeeded without Soviet intervention and, ironically, the Mujahideen resistance against the Soviet intervention never would have succeeded without heavy US and Saudi assistance.

    Or look at the Arab Spring. The reason Egypt and Tunisia successfully overturned their governments without war is because the government willfully stepped aside rather than engage in widespread violence and suppression of its people. On the other hand, in countries like Libya and Syria where the government is prepared to conduct terrible violence on its people, revolutions are not so successful. It's no mystery which kind of government the Taliban are. Polls show support for the Taliban among Afghans is at an all time low, 30% or so I believe.

    I for one am willing to invest some US tax dollars (gasp!) on selective interventions toward human rights and/or stable governments across the world.
    I am not personally willing to invest US tax dollars to fix problems which cannot be fixed by US tax dollars. It's not as if there is mass genocide happening over there, or as if something totally new and unexpected is going on, but that is not the case. We could stay there forever, and waste money and the lives of our own young men, for a bunch of people who don't even like us, and to me, that is insane. We aren't the appointed savior of the world, nor should we be. We can't even afford to take care of ourselves anymore, for God's sake.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    I don't want to add to the dog-pile, but I'm going to because I just can't ignore the blatantly disingenous comparison of women only gaining the vote 100 years into a 200-year old country, and civil rights struggles 50 years ago with a country that refuses to educate their female children, and has repeatedly murdered said female children, often by locking them inside the school house and burning them alive.

    Females in America have been "allowed" education since the 18th century. No females that I know of have every been slaughtered for trying to learn to read. Slavery was bad, mkay? But comparing 19th century slavery to the wanton slaughter of entire villages that do not adhere to an extreme jihadist tenant that treats women as disposable property, able to be legally murdered at will by ANY male who feels like doing the deed to the fact that women have "only" had the vote for 100 years is utterly laughable.

    You don't "expect the struggle under Taliban rule will be any less difficult"? Are you joking? Women have been educated in this country since its inception. Although slaves were "property" until the Civil War, "women" were not. Comparing those social struggles over the past century to the oppressive barbarism that is Taliban rule in Afghanistan and Pakistan is akin to comparing the fact that women and minorities were not allowed to vote until the 20th century to the horror of the holocaust... and finding them equal!!

    I'm truly astounded.
    I never said that the struggle of women and minorities was as bad as what is going on in some Islamic countries. However, you made it sound like things were great for women before they got the vote. Women were viewed as property, and domestic violence wasn't even taken seriously in this country until about 20 years ago. You should look more into all the injustices women faced for 150 years in this country before they gained the right to vote. They were judged by men in courts. When they left their husbands, the husbands often got the children. If they acted out emotionally, they were put into insane asylums where they got shock treatment to “cure” their emotional illness. It wasn't a pretty picture for a lot of women in this country. You should study the women’s suffrage movement in this country. Then we had the civil rights movement. Prior to this movement, many states in the south could lynch black people when ever they felt those black people where stepping out of their social boundaries. I know it’s hard to see the violence and lack of respect for equal rights in this country in the past, but it doesn’t make our past go away.
    I am also not saying any of this to side with those committing atrocities in those Islamic countries. I am simply saying that if anyone expected the change in these countries to go smoothly, they are fooling themselves.

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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    Quote Originally Posted by Μολὼν λαβέ View Post
    Murder apologist for the Taliban; got it.
    Nothing in what I have said indicates that I am apologizing for the Taliban. I have no respect for people who harm other people to gain political power.

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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    Quote Originally Posted by Hairytic View Post
    I never said that the struggle of women and minorities was as bad as what is going on in some Islamic countries. However, you made it sound like things were great for women before they got the vote. Women were viewed as property, and domestic violence wasn't even taken seriously in this country until about 20 years ago.
    No, they weren't. Twenty years ago, women were educated, climbing the corporate ladder, NOT viewed as property and domestic violence was taken seriously despite the fact that rape and DV victims were not given the support they are now given. I've lived a long time. I've lived through the eras that you are describing, although I doubt that you have.

    You should look more into all the injustices women faced for 150 years in this country before they gained the right to vote. They were judged by men in courts. When they left their husbands, the husbands often got the children. If they acted out emotionally, they were put into insane asylums where they got shock treatment to “cure” their emotional illness. It wasn't a pretty picture for a lot of women in this country. You should study the women’s suffrage movement in this country.
    Women were second-class citizens, true. They were NOT considered "property", they were NOT legally murdered, and as for the insane asylum crap you'll have to back that with some legitimate documentation that the majority of women who "acted out emotionally" were put to shock treatments because they left their husbands. I have studied the women's suffrage movement in this country. I'll do you one better. I've actually lived through much of it. What you describe is not the common experience of the vast majority of women in that age; it is the over-the-top rhetoric of unproven, undocumented histrionics by those who insist that not only were sufferagettes harassesed, arrested, and insulted, they were brutalized, tortured and destroyed. Prove it. You can't. Yes, women marched for prohibition, marched for voting rights, were vilified, jostled and taken to jail in some cases. They were not murdered en masse.

    Then we had the civil rights movement. Prior to this movement, many states in the south could lynch black people when ever they felt those black people where stepping out of their social boundaries. I know it’s hard to see the violence and lack of respect for equal rights in this country in the past, but it doesn’t make our past go away.
    Again, I've lived through the civil rights movement. Blacks were indeed lynched; however, you are implying that they were lynched by the thousands and legally so. That is a total fabrication. Thing is, it was against the law to murder blacks because they were "uppity", so the lynchings were covered up because they were illegal. The KKK hid their identities for a reason. Entire towns of blacks were not slaughtered. Females and blacks were not locked into schools, and burned alive. It is a stain on our history. It is NOT akin to the holocaust, as you would imply because you have read a few books and believe you understand the totality of what the 1950's and 1960's were like in certain areas of the country. I lived it. You are quite simply wrong.

    I am also not saying any of this to side with those committing atrocities in those Islamic countries. I am simply saying that if anyone expected the change in these countries to go smoothly, they are fooling themselves.
    Nobody expects these countries to go from midieval barbarism to equality and democracy to go smoothly. Your insistence that there is even the slightest similarity between the achievement of female and minority rights in the past 50 years and what the extremist Islamic regimes are LEGALLY doing to terrorize and slaughter their own populace is disingenuous, dishonest, and based on a complete ignorance of reality, not only of our own actual (not inflated and exaggerated) history but what is being done on an unprecedented scale at this very moment halfway around the world. Did you march for the Civil Rights Movement? I did.

    It's bothersome that you still cannot see the enormous rift between the comparisons you are trying to make, and the falacy you seem unable to recognize.

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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    No, they weren't. Twenty years ago, women were educated, climbing the corporate ladder, NOT viewed as property and domestic violence was taken seriously despite the fact that rape and DV victims were not given the support they are now given. I've lived a long time. I've lived through the eras that you are describing, although I doubt that you have.



    Women were second-class citizens, true. They were NOT considered "property", they were NOT legally murdered, and as for the insane asylum crap you'll have to back that with some legitimate documentation that the majority of women who "acted out emotionally" were put to shock treatments because they left their husbands. I have studied the women's suffrage movement in this country. I'll do you one better. I've actually lived through much of it. What you describe is not the common experience of the vast majority of women in that age; it is the over-the-top rhetoric of unproven, undocumented histrionics by those who insist that not only were sufferagettes harassesed, arrested, and insulted, they were brutalized, tortured and destroyed. Prove it. You can't. Yes, women marched for prohibition, marched for voting rights, were vilified, jostled and taken to jail in some cases. They were not murdered en masse.



    Again, I've lived through the civil rights movement. Blacks were indeed lynched; however, you are implying that they were lynched by the thousands and legally so. That is a total fabrication. Thing is, it was against the law to murder blacks because they were "uppity", so the lynchings were covered up because they were illegal. The KKK hid their identities for a reason. Entire towns of blacks were not slaughtered. Females and blacks were not locked into schools, and burned alive. It is a stain on our history. It is NOT akin to the holocaust, as you would imply because you have read a few books and believe you understand the totality of what the 1950's and 1960's were like in certain areas of the country. I lived it. You are quite simply wrong.



    Nobody expects these countries to go from midieval barbarism to equality and democracy to go smoothly. Your insistence that there is even the slightest similarity between the achievement of female and minority rights in the past 50 years and what the extremist Islamic regimes are LEGALLY doing to terrorize and slaughter their own populace is disingenuous, dishonest, and based on a complete ignorance of reality, not only of our own actual (not inflated and exaggerated) history but what is being done on an unprecedented scale at this very moment halfway around the world. Did you march for the Civil Rights Movement? I did.

    It's bothersome that you still cannot see the enormous rift between the comparisons you are trying to make, and the falacy you seem unable to recognize.
    Once again, I never said that what is happening in the Middle East is just like what happened here in the US. I Originally made a comment on a post that was about how the people in these Islamic countries act as though they are not ready for freedom. I compared the US transition to freedom wasn't as smooth as alot of people seemed to think it was. I am older than you think. I lived through the 60s also. I was also talking about the nearly 200 years prior to the civil rights movement. You are running right past my point and turning what I have said into something else.
    I will say this though, it is against the law to shoot 14 year old girls in Pakistan. All of the Islamic countries are not the same. You can't just lump them all up together. The only reason I compared the struggles the people in the ME are going through to gain their freedom to what the US went through during our struggle to gain freedom was to make the point that it will take these countries a lot of time and struggle just like it took us a lot of time and struggle to reach that goal.

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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    Malala Yousafzai: Pakistan bullet surgery 'successful'

    Surgeons say they have successfully removed a bullet from the campaigning 14-year-old schoolgirl shot by Taliban gunmen in Pakistan's Swat Valley.

    Malala Yousafzai is reported to be in a stable condition after Wednesday morning's operation in Peshawar.

    The attack, in which two other girls were wounded, has been widely condemned and sparked a social media firestorm.

    --snip--

    Pakistani politicians led by the president and prime minister condemned the shooting, which the US state department has called barbaric and cowardly. Link
    I don't see this as a turning point yet, the Swat valley remains a base for the Taliban despite the Pakistani army offensive in 2009. While I think official support for the Taliban in Pakistan may be lower than it was (around 30%) the aims of the Taliban still have a strong groundswell of support within Pakistani society.

  10. #60
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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    Quote Originally Posted by Hairytic View Post
    Once again, I never said that what is happening in the Middle East is just like what happened here in the US. I Originally made a comment on a post that was about how the people in these Islamic countries act as though they are not ready for freedom. I compared the US transition to freedom wasn't as smooth as alot of people seemed to think it was. I am older than you think. I lived through the 60s also. I was also talking about the nearly 200 years prior to the civil rights movement. You are running right past my point and turning what I have said into something else.
    I will say this though, it is against the law to shoot 14 year old girls in Pakistan. All of the Islamic countries are not the same. You can't just lump them all up together. The only reason I compared the struggles the people in the ME are going through to gain their freedom to what the US went through during our struggle to gain freedom was to make the point that it will take these countries a lot of time and struggle just like it took us a lot of time and struggle to reach that goal.

    Ah, yes - - that much fabled Taliban struggle for freedom.

    Why people all can't get on board with it by rationalizing it away must be testament to their lack of properly progressive attitudes.

    We are truly living in Orwellian times.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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