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Thread: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    Quote Originally Posted by Hairytic View Post
    Wen you look back on US history and see how women were treated until recently and how minorities have been treated. Then you look how long it took to get equal rights for women and minorities, you can see that our struggle with freedom hasn't been a simpe or easy road. I don't expect the struggle under Taliban rule will be any less difficult.
    You are apparently not understanding the points we have been making. It will likely be much MORE difficult in Afghanistan. They do not have the cultural history which facilitates freedom or progress, specifically in the arena of human rights. There is no logical comparison between the two.
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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    The difference is that we had democratic and republican heritage (Greeks and Romans) as our basis. We had the Enlightenment. They have nothing of the sort. Their glory days are well over a thousand years gone by and they are not moving forward. The Arab Spring was a great head line but the reality is that even though they want freedom they don't seem to have a clue as to how they should go about it.

    I am not saying I am great... I was born lucky into a great society. They have it tough but they should at least try to give the power to the people.
    The freedom loving people in the ME and that general area will be a struggle not much different than our own struggle for freedom. If you study US history, you will see that all Americans didn't want anything to do with the revolution. Once we won our independence, things didn't just fall into place perfectly. Agianing freedom and equal rights is a hard struggle, and once we get it, it is also a struggle to keep it.
    They have many role models to go by. They too have people who are enlightened. Now they show the willingness to risk their lives to bring about freedom. I see it as a good thing.

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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    Quote Originally Posted by Hairytic View Post
    The interesting thing about history is, it shows how people go through the process of change. We didn't transition to change so well either. Women were not even allowed to vote until 1920, and we had to fight for that right. It isn't exactly fair to expect people to do better than we did when government and culture starts to go through a major change.
    Murder apologist for the Taliban; got it.
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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    Quote Originally Posted by Hairytic View Post
    The bomb in Birmingham blew up when children were starting to come to Sunday school. The timing would indicate that children were being targeted. My point has nothing to do with excusing anyone for these horrible actions. What I am saying is, we can't expect the Middle East to do a better job than we did when our country went through the same changes their country is going through. It took us well over 200 years to have equal rights. Some people are expecting the Arab Spring to improve everyone's lives in the Middle East over night. That is an unrealistic expectation.
    This doesn't have anything to do with the Arab Spring. Afghans are not Arab. And Afghanistan isn't in the Middle East.

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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    You are apparently not understanding the points we have been making. It will likely be much MORE difficult in Afghanistan. They do not have the cultural history which facilitates freedom or progress, specifically in the arena of human rights. There is no logical comparison between the two.
    Nor does Afghanistan have a history of the Taliban's extreme Islamism. Such extreme fundmentalism and acts of barbarism are as new to Afghans as ultra liberal Western ideals. There is no inherent cultural flaw in the Afghan people that dictates they can't handle a more moderate government. In fact, Afghans did just that during most of the 20th century until all hell broke loose in the Socialist coup by the PDPA in '78.

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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    Quote Originally Posted by the_recruit View Post
    Nor does Afghanistan have a history of the Taliban's extreme Islamism. Such extreme fundmentalism and acts of barbarism are as new to Afghans as ultra liberal Western ideals. There is no inherent cultural flaw in the Afghan people that dictates they can't handle a more moderate government. In fact, Afghans did just that during most of the 20th century until all hell broke loose in the Socialist coup by the PDPA in '78.
    Well, back around 30 year ago, things were better in Afghanistan than they are today, but not democratic nor free by western standards at all. Wome were treated like possessions then, as they are now. Men did enjoy some measure of freedom and social pleasure, but overall, not much has changed in any meaningful way, with the exception of escalation of violence and savagery toward anyone who dares defy authority figures.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Well, back around 30 year ago, things were better in Afghanistan than they are today, but not democratic nor free by western standards at all. Wome were treated like possessions then, as they are now. Men did enjoy some measure of freedom and social pleasure, but overall, not much has changed in any meaningful way, with the exception of escalation of violence and savagery toward anyone who dares defy authority figures.
    Then let's set the sights a little lower and aim for that instead of just saying "**** 'em all". I don't think even the neocons expect Afghanistan to blossom into the world's leading role model for democracy and liberal values. But they can do better, and have done so, than the barbarism of the Taliban.

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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    Quote Originally Posted by the_recruit View Post
    Then let's set the sights a little lower and aim for that instead of just saying "**** 'em all". I don't think even the neocons expect Afghanistan to blossom into the world's leading role model for democracy and liberal values. But they can do better, and have done so, than the barbarism of the Taliban.
    I'm not saying **** 'em all. I'm saying let them handle their own problems, and how about we stop trying to save the world, and remake it in our own image.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    I'm not saying **** 'em all. I'm saying let them handle their own problems, and how about we stop trying to save the world, and remake it in our own image.
    Sometimes "the people" can't. The notion that oppressed people need just rise up and free themselves of their bonds is, frankly, naive and often wrong. Successful revolutions without foreign assistance are rare, as demonstrated throughout history and even current events today. The Socialist revolt in Afghanistan never would have succeeded without Soviet intervention and, ironically, the Mujahideen resistance against the Soviet intervention never would have succeeded without heavy US and Saudi assistance.

    Or look at the Arab Spring. The reason Egypt and Tunisia successfully overturned their governments without war is because the government willfully stepped aside rather than engage in widespread violence and suppression of its people. On the other hand, in countries like Libya and Syria where the government is prepared to conduct terrible violence on its people, revolutions are not so successful. It's no mystery which kind of government the Taliban are. Polls show support for the Taliban among Afghans is at an all time low, 30% or so I believe.

    I for one am willing to invest some US tax dollars (gasp!) on selective interventions toward human rights and/or stable governments across the world.

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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    The Marine squad leader we know who was in the Helman District came to have a VERY low opinion of the Afghani people, who he saw as dedicated to deliberately remaining ignorant. He recalled talking to one and asking him wouldn't he like for his son to have an education and improve his life. The man replied no, that some day his son would have his sheep herd like he had from his father, so his son's life was determined when he was born, such is the will of Allah.

    The longer he was there, the less he liked them and the more he didn't care what happened to them.
    I heard the same thing from those who served in Somalia.

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