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Thread: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I did not say we should invade everywhere. Why say "I see" when you obviously don't?


    Perhaps you can present your idea to the Pentagon.



    No




    Thanks for the compliment but you're actually reading too much into my response.
    Ah, you had just made a statement of how quickly we could win the war in afghanistan given proper leadership, so I falsely assumed you had either experience or absolutely anything at all to back your statement up. My fault.

    You say we're in afghanistan because islamists are there and they trained there. Yet you also stated that they are everywhere. Should it not follow that we should invade everywhere? They certainly can train anywhere.

    What you don't realize is that every "terrorist" you kill creates three more: his kids, his friends, his neighbors. I would ask you what your master plan would be to so quickly win the world wide war on terror, but I know you won't have a plausible answer.

    Hint: No amount of globe-trotting terrorist hunting will ever destroy a political philosophy.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Ah, you had just made a statement of how quickly we could win the war in afghanistan given proper leadership, so I falsely assumed you had either experience or absolutely anything at all to back your statement up. My fault.
    That's what comes from reading into posts what isn't actually there.

    You say we're in afghanistan because islamists are there and they trained there. Yet you also stated that they are everywhere. Should it not follow that we should invade everywhere? They certainly can train anywhere.
    See above.

    What you don't realize is that every "terrorist" you kill creates three more: his kids, his friends, his neighbors.
    Do you have any specific stats to support this claim. Do you feel there would be fewer terrorists if we didn't respond to terrorism?
    Hint: No amount of globe-trotting terrorist hunting will ever destroy a political philosophy.
    Would the same rule apply to a religious philosophy?

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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    That's what comes from reading into posts what isn't actually there.



    See above.



    Do you have any specific stats to support this claim. Do you feel there would be fewer terrorists if we didn't respond to terrorism?
    I only have my experience in afghanistan. Killing some dumb bastard who can't even read doesn't bring our cause foreward. His children, friends, and neighbors, who also can't read and are isolated from the rest of the world, only know that we killed him. They then join the cause and the animosity towards us grows.

    You have to look at the reason terrorism exists in the first place, and why it is directed towards us. Their animosity towards us almost entirely stems from our decades of imperialism in the middle east, and our constant waging of war there.

    We have to prevent the reasons they want to fly planes into our buildings. No amount of dead bodies will end a philosophy, history has taught us that too many times.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I only have my experience in afghanistan. Killing some dumb bastard who can't even read doesn't bring our cause foreward.
    And what is that cause?

    His children, friends, and neighbors, who also can't read and are isolated from the rest of the world, only know that we killed him. They then join the cause and the animosity towards us grows.
    Then their fate will be determined by their ignorance as well.

    You have to look at the reason terrorism exists in the first place, and why it is directed towards us. Their animosity towards us almost entirely stems from our decades of imperialism in the middle east, and our constant waging of war there.
    That is your theory. if the 'constant waging of war' was the cause there would be far more terrorism among the Europeans.
    We have to prevent the reasons they want to fly planes into our buildings. No amount of dead bodies will end a philosophy, history has taught us that too many times.
    How are we able to prevent the past? You're giving the excuse for them to always fly planes into buildings, murder children, etc. Muslims have been committing acts of terrorism everywhere from Africa to Asia, to North America, to Europe. Many of these poor dumb bastards never even heard of the Middle East.

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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Ah, you had just made a statement of how quickly we could win the war in afghanistan given proper leadership, so I falsely assumed you had either experience or absolutely anything at all to back your statement up. My fault.

    You say we're in afghanistan because islamists are there and they trained there. Yet you also stated that they are everywhere. Should it not follow that we should invade everywhere? They certainly can train anywhere.

    What you don't realize is that every "terrorist" you kill creates three more: his kids, his friends, his neighbors. I would ask you what your master plan would be to so quickly win the world wide war on terror, but I know you won't have a plausible answer.

    Hint: No amount of globe-trotting terrorist hunting will ever destroy a political philosophy.
    I believe you stay in Afghanistan for the following reasons:

    1.

    It seems clear that Central Asia is almost certainly going to be one of the most strategically important regions in the 21st Century, as one of the few yet still large areas outside the decisive orbit of a particular power (China, Russia, the Democratic sphere led by the US). It along with the Caucuses, Africa, and SE Asia represents one of the few remaining outlets of power for China and Russia, and contesting control over this region is of great important in hemming these states in and preventing their control over such an important resource node. Furthermore a firm presence can undermine and put significant pressure on both powers, it is a great wall in reverse extending from Poland, wrapping around to Turkey, hopping the Caspian to Central Asia, jumping Pakistan to India and wrapping all the way around up to Japan.

    However the US can only meaningfully compete for influence and power in Central Asia if it can achieve something resembling a victory in Afghanistan, and a continued and positive military relationship with the Afghan government. Without this you will never be able to convince the governments of Kyrgyzstan or Kazakhstan for example that the US is a viable alternative as a power counterweight to China and Russia. Instead the US will be considered a nebulous and unreliable ally.

    Finally in pursuit of these objectives its simply positive for the United States to have a stable and reliable ally in the region.

    2.

    Obviously there is an interest in preventing the re-creation of an Islamist militia state that allows the training of insurgents and terrorists with impunity. Since the commencement of the War on Terror the ability for these groups to organize and train like they could before 2001 when camps were run more or less openly in Sudan and Afghanistan, and when funding was easy to acquire due to the activities of the defacto government of the territory controlled by the Taliban. Furthermore the security presence has directly contributed to the acquisition of relevant and actionable intelligence on al-Qaeda and its multitude of affiliates, withdrawing reduces this contact and correspondingly reduces pressure.

    3.

    I'll make no apologies for believing in the value of the moral cause in Afghanistan. We fight in Afghanistan to check the tide of oppressive Islamism, the return of a totalitarian government, and the hope that our efforts will yield continued benefits for the Afghan people and the region at large. By extending education to women, by advancing efforts to rebuild the shattered country, by implanting democratic roots, by allowing the country a chance at modernity.

    It is also a future that most Afghan's want. Despite the narrative being driven home by the Taliban as a result of its incessant attacks. Strong majorities oppose both the Taliban and its affiliates. They have usually supported the presence of ISAF and coalition forces in their country as a security measure. And they continue to support the idea of their new democracy. They are being terrorized by an armed and violent minority who is using the tactics of terror to cow the people, and win control of the state. I do not believe this should be allowed to happen.

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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I only have my experience in afghanistan. Killing some dumb bastard who can't even read doesn't bring our cause foreward. His children, friends, and neighbors, who also can't read and are isolated from the rest of the world, only know that we killed him. They then join the cause and the animosity towards us grows.

    You have to look at the reason terrorism exists in the first place, and why it is directed towards us. Their animosity towards us almost entirely stems from our decades of imperialism in the middle east, and our constant waging of war there.

    We have to prevent the reasons they want to fly planes into our buildings. No amount of dead bodies will end a philosophy, history has taught us that too many times.
    No amount of dead bodies can end a philosophy or an ideology? I don't believe we have read the same history. Threats, ideological in their origins or otherwise, have always been open to elimination or suppression by the application of force. Sometimes this has resulted in the virtual downfall of an entire ideology such as the purgative wars and convulsions from 1920-1945 that brought an end to Fascism as a powerful force.

  7. #147
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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    I believe you stay in Afghanistan for the following reasons:

    1.

    It seems clear that Central Asia is almost certainly going to be one of the most strategically important regions in the 21st Century, as one of the few yet still large areas outside the decisive orbit of a particular power (China, Russia, the Democratic sphere led by the US). It along with the Caucuses, Africa, and SE Asia represents one of the few remaining outlets of power for China and Russia, and contesting control over this region is of great important in hemming these states in and preventing their control over such an important resource node. Furthermore a firm presence can undermine and put significant pressure on both powers, it is a great wall in reverse extending from Poland, wrapping around to Turkey, hopping the Caspian to Central Asia, jumping Pakistan to India and wrapping all the way around up to Japan.

    However the US can only meaningfully compete for influence and power in Central Asia if it can achieve something resembling a victory in Afghanistan, and a continued and positive military relationship with the Afghan government. Without this you will never be able to convince the governments of Kyrgyzstan or Kazakhstan for example that the US is a viable alternative as a power counterweight to China and Russia. Instead the US will be considered a nebulous and unreliable ally.
    Except for opium and rubies, there aren't many resources in afghanistan. We're not playing Risk, where we need afghanistan for it's geographical position for a tactical maneuver.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Finally in pursuit of these objectives its simply positive for the United States to have a stable and reliable ally in the region.
    Afghanistan... A stable and reliable ally? When the hell do you expect that to happen?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    2.

    Obviously there is an interest in preventing the re-creation of an Islamist militia state that allows the training of insurgents and terrorists with impunity. Since the commencement of the War on Terror the ability for these groups to organize and train like they could before 2001 when camps were run more or less openly in Sudan and Afghanistan, and when funding was easy to acquire due to the activities of the defacto government of the territory controlled by the Taliban. Furthermore the security presence has directly contributed to the acquisition of relevant and actionable intelligence on al-Qaeda and its multitude of affiliates, withdrawing reduces this contact and correspondingly reduces pressure.
    I disagree. It's an untenable position. The afghans have requested we stay another 10 years. These are people who refuse to get off their asses and help themselves. I saw it every day I was there, they want us to do everything for them, and they still don't want us there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    3.

    I'll make no apologies for believing in the value of the moral cause in Afghanistan. We fight in Afghanistan to check the tide of oppressive Islamism, the return of a totalitarian government, and the hope that our efforts will yield continued benefits for the Afghan people and the region at large. By extending education to women, by advancing efforts to rebuild the shattered country, by implanting democratic roots, by allowing the country a chance at modernity.

    It is also a future that most Afghan's want. Despite the narrative being driven home by the Taliban as a result of its incessant attacks. Strong majorities oppose both the Taliban and its affiliates. They have usually supported the presence of ISAF and coalition forces in their country as a security measure. And they continue to support the idea of their new democracy. They are being terrorized by an armed and violent minority who is using the tactics of terror to cow the people, and win control of the state. I do not believe this should be allowed to happen.
    Sounds like they might want to start doing something for themselves then. There's a difference between us training and supporting their efforts to take back their country, and us playing whack-a-mole in the mountains for 2 decades while we go bankrupt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    No amount of dead bodies can end a philosophy or an ideology? I don't believe we have read the same history. Threats, ideological in their origins or otherwise, have always been open to elimination or suppression by the application of force. Sometimes this has resulted in the virtual downfall of an entire ideology such as the purgative wars and convulsions from 1920-1945 that brought an end to Fascism as a powerful force.
    You're referring to wars against countries, not an ideology. You and grant foolishly believe that someday we'll have killed the last terrorist, and that'll have just been it. Then we can pack up and go home eh? You have to fix the root cause of terrorism, peel the onion, ask yourself the question: Why do they hate us and wish death upon us? And no, it's not because we're christians and successful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  8. #148
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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post

    And what is that cause?
    Alright, that's it, you started the conversation about the war, and now you want to play stupid like you don't now what I'm talking about when I refer to it.

    I'm really done responding to you if you keep up stupid games like this ^^
    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    *
    That is your theory. if the 'constant waging of war' was the cause there would be far more terrorism among the Europeans.
    That doesn't even make sense. More terrorist attacks have happened in europe than the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    How are we able to prevent the past? You're giving the excuse for them to always fly planes into buildings, murder children, etc. Muslims have been committing acts of terrorism everywhere from Africa to Asia, to North America, to Europe. Many of these poor dumb bastards never even heard of the Middle East.
    We're not able to prevent the past, but we are able to learn from it and not make the same mistakes in the future.

    You live in a fantasy land where you think that someday we'll kill the last terrorist and have "won". This isn't a traditional war.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Alright, that's it, you started the conversation about the war, and now you want to play stupid like you don't now what I'm talking about when I refer to it.
    I want you to be clear as to wht yuou believe the cause to be, that's all.
    I'm really done responding to you if you keep up stupid games like this ^^
    Actually 'the cause' lies at the bottom of everything. Do you feel its to control terrorism? Spread democracy? For oil. The rights of people to receive a proper education? There are many reasons given and more than Ive mentioned, Ive ask you your reason and you becaome upset. Why is that?

    That doesn't even make sense. More terrorist attacks have happened in europe than the US.
    Yes, of course. You didn't get the point.

    We're not able to prevent the past, but we are able to learn from it and not make the same mistakes in the future.
    But you are saying we are getting attacked because of the past and because the past will always be with us this can always justify further attacks, in your mind at least, on innocent people.
    You live in a fantasy land where you think that someday we'll kill the last terrorist and have "won". This isn't a traditional war.
    I have not said that and in fact I doubt you have ever been far from your parents basement, much less in Afghanistan.

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    Re: Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14 Year Old Activist

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Except for opium and rubies, there aren't many resources in afghanistan. We're not playing Risk, where we need afghanistan for it's geographical position for a tactical maneuver.
    Afghanistan... A stable and reliable ally? When the hell do you expect that to happen?

    I disagree. It's an untenable position. The afghans have requested we stay another 10 years. These are people who refuse to get off their asses and help themselves. I saw it every day I was there, they want us to do everything for them, and they still don't want us there.


    Sounds like they might want to start doing something for themselves then. There's a difference between us training and supporting their efforts to take back their country, and us playing whack-a-mole in the mountains for 2 decades while we go bankrupt.



    You're referring to wars against countries, not an ideology. You and grant foolishly believe that someday we'll have killed the last terrorist, and that'll have just been it. Then we can pack up and go home eh? You have to fix the root cause of terrorism, peel the onion, ask yourself the question: Why do they hate us and wish death upon us? And no, it's not because we're christians and successful.
    1.

    I was referring to Central Asia as a whole which is quite resource rich, but if we are talking about Afghanistan the country is in fact very well endowed with rare earth metals. Potentially up to $1 trillion in untapped platinum, lithium, tungsten, chromium, etc. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/14/wo...pagewanted=all But yes, I was referring to Afghanistan as an important geopolitical pivot point for the rest of Central Asia as far as the US is concerned.

    2.

    I think a reliable and stable Afghanistan is not a fantasy whatsoever. The government can emerge victorious in this fight, and any Afghan government will desire close and strong relations with the US for a variety of security, economic, and strategic reasons.

    3.

    What evidence do you have of the Afghans not "getting off their asses" to help themselves? More than 12,000 members of the ANSF have been killed over the past 10 years in battles with the Taliban and their Islamist affiliates, and tens of thousands more have been wounded. Weakness and difficulty in the face of a threat is not the same is doing nothing. They face a strong and vigorous minority seeking to overcome a nascent government which due to the violence has never had time to throw down the deep roots a proper state needs.

    4.

    I am referring to wars against other countries, but also against ideologies. Clearly we did reduce and destroy two cultures and ideologies, and in the case of Japan we even restructured their religion. Are they completely analogous to our present struggles? No, of course not. But it is foolish I think to argue that global Islamist terrorism or its offshoots are impossible to defeat via political, police, and financial pressure wedded with armed confrontation. The Taliban for example is not inexhaustible and can be eroded and suppressed. International terrorist groups can be reduced and driven away or destroyed (see al-Qaeda in Saudi Arabia as a salient example of an organization in disarray and defeat). It is a long term effort globally, with localized campaigns and efforts in places like Yemen, Afghanistan, Mali, etc.

    As for why they hate us, that is easy enough to understand and it proves nothing. 'They' nebulous as that sounds, dislike us for our foreign policy, for our culture, for our position as the global hegemon which earns us burning enmity, for their own perceived national and cultural degeneration, for their status at home, etc. However, it doesn't matter to me that they dislike us, anymore than it mattered to the US that Japan hated us for imposing the resource embargo. Just because someone has a grievance with you, does not mean that you have done something that requires atonement. I recognize that Osama Bin Laden (taking one example) bitterly opposed Western intervention in East Timor, strongly opposed our deployment during the Gulf War, believed economic globalization led by the US was threatening Muslim traditionalism, that our alliance with Gulf monarchies was a satanic one, that US support for Israel was a defacto war on Palestinians, etc.

    But I don't care. Osama Bin Laden does not dictate US foreign policy, and that he had a violent problem with it is not evidence that the policy was wrong. It is only evidence that there was a fanatical enemy that needed to be dealt with.

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