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Thread: Obama: 'We Don't Believe Anybody Is Entitled to Success in This Country' [W:108]

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    Re: Obama: 'We Don't Believe Anybody Is Entitled to Success in This Country' [W:108]

    [QUOTE=KevinKohler;1061007312]
    Because they don't NEED to. If they don't NEED to hire another person, WHY do so, regardless of sales figures?
    A very large % of those record profits came at the expense of american workers. Those companies that laid of millions of workers and then demanded that those that remained work longer and harder to maintain production/service without any appreciable increase in income.

    At some point they will need to invest those profits, they are years behind in the competitive race. They seem content to sit back and maintain the status quo, while other nation's and their corporations, unfettered by inertia invest heavily in themselves to position themselves for future competitiveness. It a price that will surely be paid down the road.


    American corporations? Almost no such thing anymore, sunny jim. Sure, they might have an OFFICE in the country. But a warehouse? A factory? Not when the cost of doing so is four times that of shipping that work elsewhere.
    Nonsense. There are tens of thousands of American Corporations headquartered in the States. There are millions of warehouses, hundreds of thousands of factories. You seem to ignore that US workers are the most productive in the world.


    Yes. Last I checked, it's responsible for the modern world. If you don't LIKE the modern world...well, I assume you live in Canada...lots of space up there to go hardcore back woodsman.
    And I am constantly amazed that people who support more government control ignore human nature (particularly greed, corruption and ego gratification)
    Okay I'll agree about its contribution to upper societal stratum and industrialization. I do not support more government control, I support appropriate government control.


    The housing crisis was a result of our government REQUIRING mortgage companies to approve "minorities" (read: people with worse credit ratings) for home loans. THAT was Clinton's baby. So, the bakers approved these people for loans that they otherwise WOULD NOT HAVE. Because they had more loans and thus more paperwork to plow through, they had to hire more and more staff to handle the load. I mean, overnight, the ellegable customer base for home loans nearly doubled. If you've ever bought a house in the US, you are aware of the amount of crap involved. The banks, fearing (rightly so) that these loans were unstable, sold them off. To investment firms. The investment firms, using perfectly legal means, bundled those toxic loans (toxic = risky) with other LESS risky loans, in order to sweeten the sale, and called them securities, in a nice little bit of double speak. Insurance companies where the major customers for these, because they have to have high assets as a nature of the business they do. All of this continued right on through Bush, up till the crash. Was there corruption involved? A lack of oversight? Yes. On the part of OUR OWN GOVERNMENT. You see, many of our elected officials came to those government jobs BY WAY of jobs at places like Goldman Sachs, or, hey, Bane Capital. And many of them, should they not get re-elected, had those jobs to go BACK to. In other words, they are COMPROMISED. Many of them have SWEET retirement packages, as a result of certain deals done, papers signed, while in office. Some of them have investment returns not allowed to the rest of the general public, more results of the same actions.

    Do you see the problems here? The only REAL corruption we have...is NOT on the private side. It's on the public side.
    So corruption, de-regulation and lack of oversight all contributed to the financial meltdown. And the solution is laissez faire? Feed corruption, strangle regulation and tie up any govenment enforcement in the courts for decades is the right balanced formula where america and americans can live happily ever after?
    My Karma ran over your Dogma.

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    Re: Obama: 'We Don't Believe Anybody Is Entitled to Success in This Country' [W:108]

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    And the citizens of Canada are most likely OK with this because their government is not composed of corrupted, compromised individuals whose primary purpose is to serve one corporation or another. They don't have a government that is more willing to spend money to take life, than to save it. they don't have a government that is building tanks and jets it's military doesn't need, just to appease the unions that make them. The list goes on and on and on...but the message is, americans, the ones with any amount of sense and money, anyway, have a real problem handing over hard earned money to an entity that, for all intents and purposes, is going to mismanage it, waste it, or outright lose it.
    Can't say we're corruption free by any means and there is corporate influence. However, as i acknowledged in previous posts, Canada is just plain lucky to be situated where we are. We have tons of resources, a climate only a candian could love, a giant more or less benevolent neighbour and mutually largest trading partner and a fairly limited military requirement because other the the US nobody would be crazy enough to invade canada. (it does sorta put us under the flight path of ICBMS, but hey that's why there are a lot of holes in the canadian shield.)
    My Karma ran over your Dogma.

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    Re: Obama: 'We Don't Believe Anybody Is Entitled to Success in This Country' [W:108]

    I said, "I am somewhat surprised that you do not know where jobs suddenly come from. They come from free people making decisions, choosing, for themselves in freedom, with the smallest possible interference and the fewest possible number of obstacles put in their place by the state. We have not seen that for a very long time. Nor have you. I remember it. It does not seem that you do."

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonsa View Post
    Really? so why aren't companies creating those jobs in america right now?
    Did you miss the crucial parts about a free people operating with the lowest possible interference from government?

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    Re: Obama: 'We Don't Believe Anybody Is Entitled to Success in This Country' [W:108]

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    What the hell are you talking about? My question is, is Obama trying to trick people into believing he's conservative?
    It is a perfectly sensible thing to say the way you mean it.

    He means you are not entitled to your success. "if you've got a business you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen."
    He means the state should take your wealth because you are not entitled to your success. He is a thug and a tyrant. You are neither. And that makes all the difference.

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    Re: Obama: 'We Don't Believe Anybody Is Entitled to Success in This Country' [W:108]

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    It is a perfectly sensible thing to say the way you mean it.

    He means you are not entitled to your success. "if you've got a business you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen."
    He means the state should take your wealth because you are not entitled to your success. He is a thug and a tyrant. You are neither. And that makes all the difference.
    nonsense. he doesn't believe that.

    But if you insist that obama does believe that and that he is a thug and a tyrant, what do you make of romney's arrogant dismissal of 47% of America?
    At least the right quotes out of context and choose to apply semantic stupidity to Obama's quotes, but there just isn't any way to spin Romney's remarks to make it seem he actually meant something else. this must be why why it took him almost three weeks of doubling down before saying I was wrong. Too little too late for any shot at sincerity.
    My Karma ran over your Dogma.

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    Re: Obama: 'We Don't Believe Anybody Is Entitled to Success in This Country' [W:108]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonsa View Post
    nonsense. he doesn't believe that.
    Of course he does. He is a collectivist. he is a Marxist. he is a thug. He wants a reason to steal the wealth from the people who created it to give to the people stupid enough to vote for him.

    But if you insist that obama does believe that and that he is a thug and a tyrant,
    I do.

    what do you make of romney's arrogant dismissal of 47% of America?
    It was a realistic assessment. About half of the nation are takers who would not vote for Romney no matter what. They want Obamaphones, Obamabucks, Obama's stash. Many of them have been losers all of their lives. Obama validates their miserable lives.

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    Re: Obama: 'We Don't Believe Anybody Is Entitled to Success in This Country' [W:108]

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Of course he does. He is a collectivist. he is a Marxist. he is a thug. He wants a reason to steal the wealth from the people who created it to give to the people stupid enough to vote for him.
    No he's not, yes he is, no he's not, yes he is.

    how about we actually settle this. Explain to me the marxist doctrine that Obama and the dems support. Collectivism is at the core of your economy and of your government. It does not predominate, but its an integral part.

    It was a realistic assessment. About half of the nation are takers who would not vote for Romney no matter what. They want Obamaphones, Obamabucks, Obama's stash. Many of them have been losers all of their lives. Obama validates their miserable lives.
    IN that one sentence you have highlighted what is so wrong about right wing ideology. NOt only is it inaccurate, it vilifies half the country, unfairly. Welfare fraud represents a very small portion of payments, but of course you have to extrapolate that to everyone and imply it predominates when it surely does not. And of course all military personnel that don't pay taxes are losers too? How about all the senior citizens? Such callousness towards fellow americans is not what built america
    My Karma ran over your Dogma.

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    Re: Obama: 'We Don't Believe Anybody Is Entitled to Success in This Country' [W:108]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonsa View Post
    No he's not, yes he is, no he's not, yes he is.

    how about we actually settle this. Explain to me the marxist doctrine that Obama and the dems support. Collectivism is at the core of your economy and of your government. It does not predominate, but its an integral part.
    Been there. Done that. Here is the abbreviated version:
    From each...to each. Marxist, Canadian (based on your words) and Democratic Party doctrine.
    Steeply progressive taxes. Marxist, Canadian (based on your words) and Democratic Party doctrine.
    You are not entitled to your success. Statist and Democratic Party doctrine.

    I said, "It was a realistic assessment. About half of the nation are takers who would not vote for Romney no matter what. They want Obamaphones, Obamabucks, Obama's stash. Many of them have been losers all of their lives. Obama validates their miserable lives."

    To which you replied,

    IN that one sentence you have highlighted what is so wrong about right wing ideology.
    That was five sentences.

    NOt only is it inaccurate, it vilifies half the country, unfairly.
    It is accurate. About half of those who work either pay no federal income tax or they get back more than they paid in as direct payments from the government. If you want to argue that it is not 47% it is only 41% I will shrug my shoulders.

    Welfare fraud represents a very small portion of payments,
    First your statement, while interesting, is not provable, and secondly, it is irrelevant.
    but of course you have to extrapolate that to everyone and imply it predominates when it surely does not.
    First this is a mischaracterization. Second it is a straw man. It is irrelevant to my statements.

    And of course all military personnel that don't pay taxes are losers too? How about all the senior citizens? Such callousness towards fellow americans is not what built america
    Nice try. No not really. The takers are not the ones who serve in the military. Of course, you already know that. Senior citizens might be takers. Some, no doubt are. Some may have been takers for much of their lives. Others have been makers of wealth during their economically productive years.
    What built America was small, Constitutionally-limited government with citizens who worked. That America no longer exists.

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    Re: Obama: 'We Don't Believe Anybody Is Entitled to Success in This Country' [W:108]

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Been there. Done that. Here is the abbreviated version:
    From each...to each. Marxist, Canadian (based on your words) and Democratic Party doctrine.
    Steeply progressive taxes. Marxist, Canadian (based on your words) and Democratic Party doctrine.
    You are not entitled to your success. Statist and Democratic Party doctrine.
    I see you can't reply to a simple question and remain semantically challenged.


    I said, "It was a realistic assessment. About half of the nation are takers who would not vote for Romney no matter what. They want Obamaphones, Obamabucks, Obama's stash. Many of them have been losers all of their lives. Obama validates their miserable lives."

    To which you replied

    That was five sentences.
    It is accurate. About half of those who work either pay no federal income tax or they get back more than they paid in as direct payments from the government. If you want to argue that it is not 47% it is only 41% I will shrug my shoulders.
    Those that work and pay no federal income tax but pay federal payroll taxes as well as state sales and property taxes represent 32% of the 47%, so now we are talking about 15% or so of the population. Seems you don't have a handle on what is actually going on when it comes to income tax credits.

    For instance the Earned Income tax credit was established in 1975. It was greatly expanded by St.Reagan. twice by clinton, once by Bush and temporarily twice by Obama. It isn't the fault of those people who don't pay tax being lazy its the damn law of the land. Its a sad day when americans like you suck up the bumpersticker meme with total disregard to the truth, especially when it unfairly demonizes nearly half of your country. Its ignorance with more than a touch of greedy arrogance.

    First your statement, while interesting, is not provable, and secondly, it is irrelevant.
    No its not irrelevant. You paint everyone with the same uncaring brush, and that is just plain wrong. A random sampling of state statistics show between a 5 and 30% conviction or disqualification rate of total investigations. Not of total recipients, but of total investigations. So fraud isn't a severe problem. that means that you and yours must think that just the very act of accepting welfare is proof positive of the lazy, unmotivated taker. that's some sick ****.

    First this is a mischaracterization. Second it is a straw man. It is irrelevant to my statements.
    Well if it is a mischaracterization, please enlighten me. Funny I think it is a relevant inferance from your posts.



    Nice try. No not really. The takers are not the ones who serve in the military. Of course, you already know that. Senior citizens might be takers. Some, no doubt are. Some may have been takers for much of their lives. Others have been makers of wealth during their economically productive years.
    Not sure what you are saying since on the one hand you say that the Romney's characterization of america includes nearly half the population are takers, not taking responsibility for their own lives is correct or thereabouts on here you are now saying wait a minute some of these aren't lazy irresponsible people. I think you are confusing yourself trying to defend the indefensible.


    What built America was small, Constitutionally-limited government with citizens who worked. That America no longer exists.
    Oh yes the good old days.

    Considering that government spending for the last 65 years or so has hovered between 18 and 24% of gdp, when did government become too big?

    If part of the federal government is unconstitutional, then why haven't its protectors (SCOTUS) not deemed said government expansion
    to be unconstitutional.

    Considering that unemployment was at its highest at 24% in 1932, and the last couple of decades has bounced between roughly 5 and 10%, when exactly were these halcyon days?

    Or, are you just spouting another bumpersticker?
    My Karma ran over your Dogma.

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    Re: Obama: 'We Don't Believe Anybody Is Entitled to Success in This Country' [W:108]

    [QUOTE=Jonsa;1061015626]
    Those that work and pay no federal income tax but pay federal payroll taxes as well as state sales and property taxes represent 32% of the 47%, so now we are talking about 15% or so of the population. Seems you don't have a handle on what is actually going on when it comes to income tax credits.
    Your statement has absolutely nothing to do with mine. It is a common ploy to commingle things and then say "See?"
    Dishonest try. And a miss.

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