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Thread: Blasphemy or democracy? Egypt cleric tears up, burns New Testament at US Embassy

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    Re: Blasphemy or democracy? Egypt cleric tears up, burns New Testament at US Embassy

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Easy to name. The Muslim Brotherhood has called for these actions to happen.
    I don't know if this is true (sounds more like a thing lunatic Salafists would do), but assuming it is, that still doesn't mean it was the Brotherhood that sentenced the cleric for blasphemy.

    From your own article in the OP:

    The case is a rare example of the country’s often-criticized blasphemy laws being used against someone who allegedly insulted a religion that is not Islam.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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    Re: Blasphemy or democracy? Egypt cleric tears up, burns New Testament at US Embassy

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    I don't know if this is true (sounds more like a thing lunatic Salafists would do), but assuming it is, that still doesn't mean it was the Brotherhood that sentenced the cleric for blasphemy.

    From your own article in the OP:
    I didn't say it was, I am talking about the call to crucify Christians, and the violence we see today against Copts.
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    Re: Blasphemy or democracy? Egypt cleric tears up, burns New Testament at US Embassy

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I didn't say it was, I am talking about the call to crucify Christians, and the violence we see today against Copts.
    And I'm just saying that even Egypt has laws, based on their understanding of justice, even when this doesn't always match our ideas of justice.

    Obviously, the Egyptian interpretation of justice considers blasphemy in general as a punishable offense, and this notion even trumps their hatred for Christianity.

    But that's probably too much nuance for another thread with the sole purpose of venting outrage over "the Muslims". Sorry for interrupting your rant.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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    Re: Blasphemy or democracy? Egypt cleric tears up, burns New Testament at US Embassy

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray410 View Post
    That statement is absolute nonsense and can only be characterized as a ludicrous stretch to find an equivalency between a civilized country and one that still rides camels, sodomizes their former leaders and hasn't advanced in centuries.
    You know - unilineal anthropology went the way of the dodo.

    We still ride horses. . .no one sodomized anyone regardless of what you think you see in a video. . . and everyone's advanced compared to what they were in the past - even them.

    Point fail - we can be just as ****ed up . . . does that mean we *all* are - no . . . same goes for them. They aren't *all* like that, now are they? No. Same here.
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    Re: Blasphemy or democracy? Egypt cleric tears up, burns New Testament at US Embassy

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    You and GermanGuy should learn the history between Christians and Islam...
    I'm well aware of that j-mac. I was pointing out the "Despite their common monotheistic roots" part. They share quite a few prophets and a deep religious history.

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    Re: Blasphemy or democracy? Egypt cleric tears up, burns New Testament at US Embassy

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    And I'm just saying that even Egypt has laws, based on their understanding of justice, even when this doesn't always match our ideas of justice.
    Yes, Islam is the only religion in the world that I know of where their prophet calls on the followers to murder others.

    Obviously, the Egyptian interpretation of justice considers blasphemy in general as a punishable offense, and this notion even trumps their hatred for Christianity.
    And your proof of that in this case? Do me a favor, and provide the quote from the article again where you think that is what it says.

    But that's probably too much nuance for another thread with the sole purpose of venting outrage over "the Muslims". Sorry for interrupting your rant.
    Too much nuance? So now you're going to start with the insults? Look, it if fine if you disagree with me, hell, it's even fine if you don't like what I post particularly, but don't insult my intelligence in defense of a religion that would subjugate you for exploitation, tribute money, then kill you when your usefulness is finished in their eyes.

    So, we can either have a conversation, or stop wasting my time for your imagined scored points...Save that for the dolts that believe your every word is inspired.
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    Re: Blasphemy or democracy? Egypt cleric tears up, burns New Testament at US Embassy

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    I'm well aware of that j-mac. I was pointing out the "Despite their common monotheistic roots" part. They share quite a few prophets and a deep religious history.
    How does that mitigate the fact that they are in a caliphate? Are you aware what they are called to do in their percieved 'holy war'?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Blasphemy or democracy? Egypt cleric tears up, burns New Testament at US Embassy

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Yes, Islam is the only religion in the world that I know of where their prophet calls on the followers to murder others.
    Actually, that's not true. Mosaic law in the OT includes many commandments to murder/kill people for various transgressions (for example for eating shellfish, when a bride turns out not to be a virgin, or when a woman was raped, but nobody heard her crying for help). Moses himself led his people on a conquest of war and genocide against the previous population of the Holy Land. The entire OT is filled with stories of blessed people murdering each other. Now don't get me wrong, I believe all this has to be explained with the context of the time when it was written.

    As for Quran, it likewise contains several commandments to murder people under certain circumstances. But you are probably referring to Sura 2:191 and Sura 4:89. Those are commandments to kill infidels in war. When you look at the context, you will see that Quran makes clear these commandments only apply in case of war, when the Muslims are under attack. Sura 2:190 qualifies the following verse, by suggesting when fighting infidels, the Muslims shall act proportionally. Sura 2:192 demands from the Muslims to lay down the weapons the moment the infidels cease attacking them.

    So the commandment to murder/kill people in Quran is not universal or arbitrary, but set into a context, just like the killings in the OT. There are other verses in Quran that explicitly condemn murder: For example Sura 6:151, Sura 17:33 and especially 5:32.

    Of course Jesus and Mohammed were different kinds of prophets. Jesus was not at the same time prophet and worldly leader, Mohammed was. You could say Mohammed was "Jesus and Emperor Constantine in the same person" -- as the Christian leaders spreading Christianity in the first two centuries AD were not any less murderous than the early Muslims were.

    So I would not say the OT is less "murderous" than Quran. The difference, of course, is that today's Jews and Christians no longer respect the archaic commandments to murder people, while many Muslims still do. That's true. Islam never had an age of enlightenment, like the West had. But according to my experience, many Muslims are rather peaceful and don't cling to the more extreme interpretations of the problematic verses in Quran. A moderate Islam is not any less possible than moderate Judaism, in theory (at least as far "moderate" goes, when it comes to monotheistic religions).

    And your proof of that in this case? Do me a favor, and provide the quote from the article again where you think that is what it says.
    You have not even read your own article?

    Here is the crucial quote:

    The case is a rare example of the country’s often-criticized blasphemy laws being used against someone who allegedly insulted a religion that is not Islam.
    Too much nuance? So now you're going to start with the insults? Look, it if fine if you disagree with me, hell, it's even fine if you don't like what I post particularly, but don't insult my intelligence in defense of a religion that would subjugate you for exploitation, tribute money, then kill you when your usefulness is finished in their eyes.
    I know several Muslims, some of which are good friends of mine. None of them ever attempted to do any of that to me.

    Now of course, there are not few Muslims out there who do. I know that. But that's why I think waging a culture war against "evil Muslims" all painted with a broad brush is not a good approach. Such an approach will only lead to more hatred, lack of mutual understanding and dialogue -- of course you can't do that with the fanatics, but you can do that with the less extreme Muslims. That's why I prefer nuance.

    Maybe not few Egyptians are barbarians. But Egypt as a whole certainly is not.
    Last edited by German guy; 09-30-12 at 10:09 AM.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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    Re: Blasphemy or democracy? Egypt cleric tears up, burns New Testament at US Embassy

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Actually, that's not true. Mosaic law in the OT includes many commandments to murder/kill people for various transgressions (for example for eating shellfish, when a bride turns out not to be a virgin, or when a woman was raped, but nobody heard her crying for help). Moses himself led his people on a conquest of war and genocide against the previous population of the Holy Land. The entire OT is filled with stories of blessed people murdering each other. Now don't get me wrong, I believe all this has to be explained with the context of the time when it was written.

    As for Quran, it likewise contains several commandments to murder people under certain circumstances. But you are probably referring to Sura 2:191 and Sura 4:89. Those are commandments to kill infidels in war. When you look at the context, you will see that Quran makes clear these commandments only apply in case of war, when the Muslims are under attack. Sura 2:190 qualifies the following verse, by suggesting when fighting infidels, the Muslims shall act proportionally. Sura 2:192 demands from the Muslims to lay down the weapons the moment the infidels cease attacking them.

    So the commandment to murder/kill people in Quran is not universal or arbitrary, but set into a context, just like the killings in the OT. There are other verses in Quran that explicitly condemn murder: For example Sura 6:151, Sura 17:33 and especially 5:32.

    Of course Jesus and Mohammed were different kinds of prophets. Jesus was not at the same time prophet and worldly leader, Mohammed was. You could say Mohammed was "Jesus and Emperor Constantine in the same person" -- as the Christian leaders spreading Christianity in the first two centuries AD were not any less murderous than the early Muslims were.

    So I would not say the OT is less "murderous" than Quran. The difference, of course, is that today's Jews and Christians no longer respect the archaic commandments to murder people, while many Muslims still do. That's true. Islam never had an age of enlightenment, like the West had. But according to my experience, many Muslims are rather peaceful and don't cling to the more extreme interpretations of the problematic verses in Quran. A moderate Islam is not any less possible than moderate Judaism, in theory.
    It would be wonderful to see that, but the problem you have reconciling here is that we are not at war with "moderate Islam". However, moderate muslims that you speak of are NOT policing their own with any regularity, or success at all. My opinion is that if the west were to see that ME, and N. African governments were to step up and truly crack down on the use of terrorism then they would see greater cooperation from the west. However, as long as the governments of the Islamic countries of the ME continue to grant the people harbor, with a wink and a nod toward agitating the west, all they would and should see is the point of a swine dipped sword tip.

    Appeasement in the face of their Taqiyya toward their enemy.

    You have not even read your own article?

    Here is the crucial quote:

    The case is a rare example of the country’s often-criticized blasphemy laws being used against someone who allegedly insulted a religion that is not Islam.
    Can you point to other examples in modern times where insults to a religion that is not Islam is prosecuted? And the 'insult' is in the eye of the beholder is it not? Renting and burning a bible is an insult, but burning a church, and killing its worshipers is not? give me a break.

    I know several Muslims, some of which are good friends of mine. None of them ever attempted to do any of that to me.
    What's this? A new spin on the old "I can't be racist because I have black friends"??? How embarrassing for you.

    Now of course, there are not few Muslims out there who do. I know that. But that's why I think waging a culture war against "evil Muslims" all painted with a broad brush is not a good approach.
    We didn't start this, but we will finish it.

    Such an approach will only lead to more hatred, lack of mutual understanding and dialogue -- of course you can't do that with the fanatics, but you can do that with the less extreme Muslims. That's why I prefer nuance.
    Sure, you talk to who you can, and destroy who you can't before they destroy you. The art in this is accurately assessing whom those so called non fanatics are, and what they can offer. This Presidents problem is that he seems to believe that when radicals are offended, and lash out that he needs to appease them to calm the situation down like a hostage. That approach in history has been proven to fail.

    Maybe not few Egyptians are barbarians. But Egypt as a whole certainly is not.
    No one said they were, but,....BUT, continued muted response from within the Islamic community as a whole is not helping restore any peace, in fact the ME is becoming more radicalized, and Presidents like Obama see the rise of the MB, an open terror organization with a goal of driving out Israel just like the Hezi's in Palestine, a good thing. It is not.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Blasphemy or democracy? Egypt cleric tears up, burns New Testament at US Embassy

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    It would be wonderful to see that, but the problem you have reconciling here is that we are not at war with "moderate Islam". However, moderate muslims that you speak of are NOT policing their own with any regularity, or success at all. My opinion is that if the west were to see that ME, and N. African governments were to step up and truly crack down on the use of terrorism then they would see greater cooperation from the west. However, as long as the governments of the Islamic countries of the ME continue to grant the people harbor, with a wink and a nod toward agitating the west, all they would and should see is the point of a swine dipped sword tip.

    Appeasement in the face of their Taqiyya toward their enemy.



    Can you point to other examples in modern times where insults to a religion that is not Islam is prosecuted? And the 'insult' is in the eye of the beholder is it not? Renting and burning a bible is an insult, but burning a church, and killing its worshipers is not? give me a break.



    What's this? A new spin on the old "I can't be racist because I have black friends"??? How embarrassing for you.



    We didn't start this, but we will finish it.



    Sure, you talk to who you can, and destroy who you can't before they destroy you. The art in this is accurately assessing whom those so called non fanatics are, and what they can offer. This Presidents problem is that he seems to believe that when radicals are offended, and lash out that he needs to appease them to calm the situation down like a hostage. That approach in history has been proven to fail.



    No one said they were, but,....BUT, continued muted response from within the Islamic community as a whole is not helping restore any peace, in fact the ME is becoming more radicalized, and Presidents like Obama see the rise of the MB, an open terror organization with a goal of driving out Israel just like the Hezi's in Palestine, a good thing. It is not.
    Oh war-mongers... How IS that war on terror coming?
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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