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Thread: Iran is heating up . . . [W:259]

  1. #231
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    re: Iran is heating up . . . [W:259]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    1. Do not attribute to American evil what can be equally explained with American bumbling. We are really, really, really good at not understanding foreign mindsets.

    2. America's goals are to promote democracy and protect her interests - and we think those things are mutually reinforcing.






    3. The notion that having to reopen the straits in the face of full, kinetic Iranian opposition would be a simple or quick operation is uneducated.



    He knocked out two (2) carrier groups. They had to stop the exercise and revive the fleet from the bottom of the sea, just so that we wouldn't lose our own wargame.




    Don't get me wrong. We win any kinetic operation against Iran. We can win limited kinetic operations against Iran. But we are not so overwhelmingly omnipotent in the Persian Gulf as people seem to be suggesting.
    ,whoever wins is not the issue,the issue is what will happen after that war ,i just want real democracy ..


    you read my post cpwill .what about the arabian spring ?is it more democratic than the previous ones ?
    "Sovereignty is not given, it is taken." ATATÜRK

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    re: Iran is heating up . . . [W:259]

    The Arab Spring is absolutely democratic in it's thrust. What people kept missing (and I don't know why) is that that does not mean they were in favor of liberal democracy of the western style, which Turkey to a large extent imported under Attaturk. Egyptians want an Islamist government.


    After a limited war between the US and Iran? The mullah's will be in a stronger position internally. Even the Green Movement is pro-nuclear, people screw up when they fail to realize the power of Iranian nationalism. The Mullah's will use their position as leading the stand against the US' restriction of Iran's regional hegemonic goals to consolidate internal power and tamp down on democratizing elements.
    Last edited by cpwill; 09-27-12 at 09:25 PM.

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    re: Iran is heating up . . . [W:259]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    The Arab Spring is absolutely democratic in it's thrust. What people kept missing (and I don't know why) is that that does not mean they were in favor of liberal democracy of the western style, which Turkey to a large extent imported under Attaturk. Egyptians want an Islamist government.
    and usa helped them have one....yes you want democracy..


    you admit teh great middle east project's aim ,moderate islamism having close friendship with usa ,no worries for those people who really want teh democracy,thxx..
    imported?


    you have to learn about our history!

    soryy ,our people cant leave the democracy ,even fake mullah erdoğan.......we are not like arabians.........

    democracy is democracy ,it hasnt any type of western or eastern ,stop this orientalism please.
    Last edited by Medusa; 09-27-12 at 09:30 PM.
    "Sovereignty is not given, it is taken." ATATÜRK

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    re: Iran is heating up . . . [W:259]

    Quote Originally Posted by sharon View Post
    Have you thought this through? Have you looked at a map? There are NO winners in the bomb Iran scenario.
    Those of us who own defense industry stock will be winners.

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    re: Iran is heating up . . . [W:259]

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    and usa helped them have one....yes you want democracy..


    you admit taht teh great middle east project's aim ,moderate islamism haveing close friendship with usa ,no worries for those people who really want teh democracy,thxx..
    imported?


    you have to learn about our history!

    soryy ,our people cant leave the democracy ,even fake mullah erdoğan.......we are not like arabians.........

    democracy is democracy ,it hasnt any type of western or eastern ,stop this orientalism please.
    Yes, imported. Attaturk was pretty open about the fact that he was orienting Turkey westwards and importing Western approaches to governance. And Liberal Democracy is indeed a Western invention. What Egypt et. al. seem to be moving towards is Illiberal Democracy.

    I don't know about current actual US Foreign Policy Goals. I would bet they are more ambiguous than this. But broadly speaking, we would argue that representative government has self-correcting abilities that dictatorships do not, which make them long term more stable. Let Islamism be as thoroughly discredited as Arab National Socialism has been.

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    re: Iran is heating up . . . [W:259]

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    C-802's are truck launchable, one was used by Lebanon in 2006. Targets in the strait can be acquired visually, the fire control radar only needs to be turned on for a few seconds to get a lock. There isn't enough time to eliminate the launcher with an HARM before it can fire.
    Lets not imagine this is a pickup truck, okay? A very specific and very large launch vehicle is required.

    Now to be clear, are you considering launching on civilian ships or USN ships? It's important because, yes, the C-802 would be a significant threat to civilian ships. USN ships need only stand outside the straight where visual targeting (if this actually works) would be useless and let naval strike aircraft eliminate SSMs and patrol boats. The USN need not be in the Strait to eliminate targets within it. Civilian ships may be targeted and Iran could claim they closed the Strait for some hours. Some hours afterward, Iran would not have a navy nor anti-ship batteries with which to oppose USN presence with the Strait.
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    re: Iran is heating up . . . [W:259]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Yes, imported. Attaturk was pretty open about the fact that he was orienting Turkey westwards and importing Western approaches to governance. And Liberal Democracy is indeed a Western invention. What Egypt et. al. seem to be moving towards is Illiberal Democracy.

    I don't know about current actual US Foreign Policy Goals. I would bet they are more ambiguous than this. But broadly speaking, we would argue that representative government has self-correcting abilities that dictatorships do not, which make them long term more stable. Let Islamism be as thoroughly discredited as Arab National Socialism has been.
    there are lots of turkey experts here.i should stop thinking i know my own history...

    yes we see the westerner style democracy ,you said " they want islamisim "

    western democracy colonized this world ,****ed this world.

    and you prove my point too.........

    thx.

    i still dont get...

    of course you dont know about the great middle east project ,cp ,thats why you usually reject my comments about this issue
    Last edited by Medusa; 09-27-12 at 09:42 PM.
    "Sovereignty is not given, it is taken." ATATÜRK

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    re: Iran is heating up . . . [W:259]

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    there are lots of turkey experts here.i should stop thinking i know my own history...
    Well, alright, demonstrate please that Turkey's current government structure is not the result of Attaturk's political reforms which were explicitly based on a western model.

    yes we see the westerner style democracy ,you said " they want islamisim "
    They do, and given the chance, they will vote for it.

    western democracy colonized this world ,****ed this world.
    that is incorrect - empires who adopted representative government and free market economics became incredibly powerful, enabling them to spread vice their competitors. the liberality of those empires eventually caused them to willingly retract, a historic occurrence heretofore unseen. The rest of the world benefited from this spread of superior forms of governmental and economic organization in much the same way that it benefits from the spread of technological advances - and by and large, the longer a non-western nation was colonized by the Western Democratic powers, the better off it was. Compare (for example) India to Pakistan, or India post-British to India pre-British.

    and you prove my point too.........

    thx.

    i still dont get...
    Islamism is popular. Okay. So in a representative government, they will take power. They will take that power and use it to impose shariah at home and be belligerent abroad. Over time the failures of and backlashes against these policies will cause Islamism to lose popularity.

  9. #239
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    re: Iran is heating up . . . [W:259]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Now that you mention it, Ahmadinejad
    How could anyone not give that assclown a (w) minute in that shthole regime's 15. Wiggan stands corrected.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 09-27-12 at 11:01 PM.

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    re: Iran is heating up . . . [W:259]

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa
    of course you dont know about the great middle east project ,cp ,thats why you usually reject my comments about this issue
    medusa, I was a fan of PNAC long before they became the center of everyone's favorite conspiracy theory.

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