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Thread: Coal Company Plans to Close Several Mines

  1. #21
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    Re: Coal Company Plans to Close Several Mines

    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceman_Spiff View Post
    First of all, you can get off your high horse.

    Yes, President Obama did say that he wanted to bankrupt the coal industry while he was running for president in 2008. The only thing is with the proliferation of hydraulic fracturing the natural gas industry managed to beat him to it. I do not understand what is so hard to understand about that.

    And, yes, I am blaming the coal industry, in this case Alpha Natural Resources, for becoming an uncompetitive form of energy. Instead of better preparing for the future they were caught flatfooted, and at least for the time being, natural gas looks to be the future in the energy sector.

    Finally, you are right that they are avoiding blaming themselves for their own business failures. They have made it clear that the regulatory structure of the federal government is the reason for these mine closures.
    Natural gas is cheap right now, but may not remain so.

    Existing commodity price dynamics make natural gas the "safest play," for building a new power plant. However, overbuilding gas-fired infrastructure could set the stage for considerable gas price increases over the longer term.

    In the US, gas is clearly the most-favorable option given existing economic, political and environmental conditions and that is exactly where the danger lies.

    Mohler explained that betting on gas does not remove volatility from the equation over the long term and utility customers do not want their bills to fluctuate wildly. The potential for gas overbuild is a concern for Duke, which says it attempts to maintain a balanced generation portfolio and views any individual component rising above 30% of its total fuel mix as potentially problematic. The main concern for Duke - and many other US utilities - is making decisions based on current commodity prices and economics that risk unbalancing their generation portfolios. Over the longer term, changing dynamics and commodity price fluctuations, including more expensive gas, would hurt the utility and its customers.
    Coal, Nuclear And Natural Gas: What Will Keep The Lights On?
    Now that market dynamic is bad enough for the energy industry to deal with, but it's how the market works. These people can handle it. But when you toss in the EPA, it screws everything up.

    Undue Burden

    Among the power companies challenging the rule were Southern, EME Homer City Generation LP, a unit of Edison International, and Energy Future Holdings Corp. units in Texas. The state of Texas and the National Mining Association joined in parallel cases, saying the rule, which was issued last year, would put an undue financial burden on power producers and threaten electricity reliability. The cases were consolidated by the court.

    For Republican lawmakers, who have accused President Barack Obama’s EPA for waging a “war on coal,” the ruling was welcomed as a much-needed reprieve.

    The cross-state rule “is just one of several new EPA rules targeting America’s power sector that together will cost our economy tens of billions of dollars and put thousands of jobs at risk,” Fred Upton, the Michigan Republican chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, said in a statement. “The EPA is an agency out of control.”

    The EPA also proposed rules for greenhouse gases from power plants, a regulation that power companies warn will preclude the construction of new coal-fired power plants.
    Coal Plants
    In reality, the effect on energy prices for the consumer is being muted, for the time being at least, by natural gas...but the Obama administration is the prime thorn in the side for the coal industry and is the cause of the job losses. Not poor business practices.
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

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    Re: Coal Company Plans to Close Several Mines

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Natural gas is cheap right now, but may not remain so.



    Now that market dynamic is bad enough for the energy industry to deal with, but it's how the market works. These people can handle it. But when you toss in the EPA, it screws everything up.



    In reality, the effect on energy prices for the consumer is being muted, for the time being at least, by natural gas...but the Obama administration is the prime thorn in the side for the coal industry and is the cause of the job losses. Not poor business practices.
    Being out-competed by a cheaper product isn't a poor business practice, it's just reality.

    Coal would be far more expensive if its actual costs were included in the bill you get from the power company.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
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    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Coal Company Plans to Close Several Mines

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Being out-competed by a cheaper product isn't a poor business practice, it's just reality.

    Coal would be far more expensive if its actual costs were included in the bill you get from the power company.
    LOL!!!

    If the cost for Obama's regulations were itemized on that bill, Obama would be tossed out on his ear.
    TANSTAAFL

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    Re: Coal Company Plans to Close Several Mines

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    It begins... The lay offs are coming thanks to Obama's new EPA regs, which is just what our economy needed.

    Four more years... I don't think so.



    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/19/us...ef=todayspaper
    It has almost nothing to do with Obama's cracking down on a dirty, polluting industry. Heck, under Obama, the US has become a net exporter of petroleum for the first time in half a century.

    Rather, it has almost everything to do with the development of natural gas fracking. In the energy industry, money talks. Coal, at long last, seems to be going the way of the dinosaur.
    "A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons." --Hillary Rodham Clinton
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    Re: Coal Company Plans to Close Several Mines

    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceman_Spiff View Post
    Alpha Natural Resources is entitled to whatever opinion they wish, but what they said really does not surprise me. In situations when people fail they often look for a scapegoat to explain why they are not doing better, and in this situation the federal government makes a wonderful scapegoat.

    Even if we entertain the notion for the decline in the coal industry is due to federal regulations, for me personally, it does not change much. Capitalism is very much like evolution in that those who can best adapt to constantly changing situations will survive. Despite these supposed onerous EPA regulations the natural gas industry is managing to prosper while the coal industry is having to change how they do business in order to survive. What is going with the American energy sector is a great example of how capitalism works.

    So, again, what problem do you have with capitalism?
    The natural gas industry is flourishing because of favorable regulation and fracking. The government is stepping out of the way while they poison our water tables and soil. At the same time it's tightening up on the coal industry that poisons our air. That's not capaitalism, that's the federal government demonizing one industry and promoting another to look "green" in the face of this climate change the sky is falling distraction.

    You're being played big time.

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    Re: Coal Company Plans to Close Several Mines

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Reallocation of resources to meet market incentives increases production and we as a nation are left better off for it. Reallocation of resources to meet political or regulatory incentives decreases production and we as a nation are left the worse off for it.

    The President has made it quite clear that he intends to choke off and shut down the coal industry, which he sees' as a worthy loss in the regulatory goal of fighting off ManBearPig. Then he goes off and tries to push us into the electric cars that run off coal.

    hope that helped.
    If you ignore the public poses of political advocates, you would free your mind to come the logical conclusion that Big Oil is behind the shutting down of its rival, the coal industry. Also done to shut down logging, which competes with the petrochemical, plastic.
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    Re: Coal Company Plans to Close Several Mines

    As evidence, here are the spot prices and future prices for natural gas from 2006 to 2011.

    Check out what happened between 2008 and 2009. Coal ain't done that.
    "A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons." --Hillary Rodham Clinton
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    Re: Coal Company Plans to Close Several Mines

    Quote Originally Posted by johnny_rebson View Post
    A clear example of Obama pandering to the people on the gulf coast.
    Well thank God! You'd think us on the Gulf Coast should have a say as to what is done right off our coasts! We do have billions in tourism and fishing that are dependent on those same waters that oil is drilled out of.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Coal Company Plans to Close Several Mines

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    It has almost nothing to do with Obama's cracking down on a dirty, polluting industry. Heck, under Obama, the US has become a net exporter of petroleum for the first time in half a century.

    Rather, it has almost everything to do with the development of natural gas fracking. In the energy industry, money talks. Coal, at long last, seems to be going the way of the dinosaur.
    You don't get it. We just don't have the natural gas resources to last us going forward. So, if we allow the coal infrastructure to die, strangle it out as we are, when the natural gas supplies start to fall and/or folks start to realise they've traded cleaner air for deadly poisoning of the water and soil, we've up the creek without a paddle. We have to pay big time to get the coal industry started again and all those clean coal initiatives will have been abandoned.

    The feds are digging us into yet another energy hole, but hey, who cares right? As long as Obama can say he cleaned things up and can be re-elected. Suckers!
    Last edited by clownboy; 09-27-12 at 03:32 PM.

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    Re: Coal Company Plans to Close Several Mines

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    It has almost nothing to do with Obama's cracking down on a dirty, polluting industry. Heck, under Obama, the US has become a net exporter of petroleum for the first time in half a century.

    Rather, it has almost everything to do with the development of natural gas fracking. In the energy industry, money talks. Coal, at long last, seems to be going the way of the dinosaur.
    1. Petroleum exports have nothing to do with this topic. Mentioning it here is nothing but a diversion and a space filler for your post. Irrelevant.

    2. One of the reasons, as I've illustrated with my links, for the parity of coal and natural gas prices is the increase in costs to the coal industry due to Obama's regulations and meddling in the market.

    Obama needs to just leave American business the frack alone. He's screwing things up left and right. And costs for everything in this country are rising thanks to him. Freakin' liberals!!
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

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