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‘Fast & Furious' operation: Justice probe clears Eric Holder

Well if the Fast and Furious outrage was about justice sure...everybody agrees with the outcome and glad the issue was brought up.

This tying it to Obama is the ginned up portion.



I thought they were only trying to tie it to Holder. You know, the guy that Obama is protecting by illegally using Executive Privilege to obstruct the investigation?
 
What does that say about Holder's management? He didn't know what was going on and thus he is innocent? Instead of innocent, it seems more like incompetent. Incompetence is not a crime, but it is a shame.



He is avoiding blame where he should be forced to resign in disgrace.

Sounds to me like he's pretty good at what he does.
 
Unless the President picks up the phone, calls his lawyer, and pays him out of his own pocket, I do not believe any of it should be protected by privilege of any kind. If it is not real national security and it is paid for with public dollars, people should have a right to see it regardless of whose party is in the WH.
 
What documents did Obama hold back from the congressional hearing? Holder handed over everything and then some. Issa wanted something that didn't exist. Now that Holder has been cleared, we know Issa was just playing politics by trying to drum up a scandal where there was none.


About 70,000 docs and emails were withheld from the Congressional Investigators and many of the docs that you say did not exist were eventually turned over to the inspector General.

Failure to turn over the docs and emails under subpoena might be a separation of powers violation.
 
This White House makes the Nixon White house look like the cleanest and most trustworthy group since Mother Theresa had a Rosary night.

Your opinion is, in the end, worthless to me or the facts. :shrug:
 
Clearly, the only way this not-guilty verdict would have satisfied you would be if the investigation were conducted by an independent investigator hand picked by Congressman Issa himself. I wound at what point will people start to set their partisanship aside and allow professional ethics and integrity rule the day?

Republicans had their day in court (so to speak). Chief Justice Holder was cleared of the charge of having fore-knowledge of the Fast and Furious gun running scandal. Eleven members of the Obama Administration won't get away unpunished, however. Nonetheless, time to let it go and move on. Don't be bitter and do as Congressman Issa did attempting to :spin: the issue to drum up additional faults against Justice Holder and President Obama as the book is closed on this case.



Tacky for sure! Just admit defeat and move on.



It's not incompetence when members from the ATF kept information from senior Justice Department officials. Maybe those individuals were attempting to cover their own butts. Maybe the ATF didn't want to involve another department concerning their screw up. Maybe senior DOJ officials below Chief Justice Holder didn't want to involve him in the ordeal. Whatever the case, it's pretty clear Holder knew very little about FF BEFORE the scandal broke loose. So, as I said above, let it go, folks. There's nothing more to see here.



The "hide/destroy the evidence" montra isn't new. You do recall the Iran/Contra Affair from the Reagan era, right? What did Col. Oliver North do? Answer: Exactly what he was told and destroyed evidence. While there is no evidence such actions were taken here w/FF, I get what you're eluding to. Unfortunately, it makes the Republican decree to "search for the truth" seem quite hollow after the fact.



Are you saying that there is nothing hidden in all of this and that we know everything there is to know about Fast and Furious?
 
Then what is it when your underlings are so poorly managed that an operation of this scope is concealed from you? The ATFE hasn't had leadership for years now. Whose fault is that? Holder, Obama, Romney, Objective Voice or Specklebang? Please pick one from that list. If it's my fault, I'll take full responsibility and if it's not my fault, I hope someone will.

I hope you know my POV on this isn't partisan. It just seems like a giant management failure and I tend to blame the managers, not the flunkies. Of course, I could be wrong....


The problem in this and in everything about the Obama administration is that nobody takes responsibility for anything. Obama is still blaming Bush for goodness sakes.

They know all of the answers, but they never find the solutions and never ever accept the fact that they continuously make mistakes that cost, time, money and the misery of the people.

This is the least effective most incompetent administration in the history of the republic.
 
Your opinion is, in the end, worthless to me or the facts. :shrug:



Unless my opinion was endorsed by the DNC, I would not expect it to have any value for you.
 
Unless my opinion was endorsed by the DNC, I would not expect it to have any value for you.

Well, your opinion is not endorsed by anything other than yourself. That's what makes it worthless. And it has nothing to do with who you are, it the fact that you're just one guy one the internet demanding proof that there isn't a conspiracy. When it's backed up by any facts or anything other than your own dogmatic beliefs, call me maybe?
 
Then what is it when your underlings are so poorly managed that an operation of this scope is concealed from you? The ATFE hasn't had leadership for years now. Whose fault is that? Holder, Obama, Romney, Objective Voice or Specklebang? Please pick one from that list. If it's my fault, I'll take full responsibility and if it's not my fault, I hope someone will.

I hope you know my POV on this isn't partisan. It just seems like a giant management failure and I tend to blame the managers, not the flunkies. Of course, I could be wrong....

CORRECTION: The ATF hasn't had an regular assigned leader in some time as opposed to a "Deputy" or "Acting" Director. Big difference! I don't know whose fault that is, but to say that the department has been "leaderless" would be untrue.

Did having a "temporary" Acting Director in charge lead to mismanagement or internal policies not being adhered to? Based on the investigator's findings I'd say that would be an accurate assessment. As such, those who fault was found per the investigation are being held accountable. But to put things in their proper perspective, it wasn't Justice Holder's job to run the ATF. His was to run the DOJ. Of course, ATF does come under DOJ purview, but since an Acting Director was assigned I don't think you can hold Justice Holder responsible for someone else's screw up when according to the investigation he didn't have prior knowledge of events.
 
Are you saying that there is nothing hidden in all of this and that we know everything there is to know about Fast and Furious?

No, not necessarily. What I'm saying is based on all the evidence that was laid bare none pointed directly at Justice Holder for negligence or witholding information. I'm sure there are aspects of this case the public will never know about. But based on the evidence, the anvil can't be dropped on Holder's head (as much as many people would have liked that to happen).
 
Then was it not part of Mr. Holders job to assign a director? This reeks of poor management. The ATFE is a heavily armed police agency. You'd think that having someone firmly in charge would be a priority.

Holder is not a Justice as far as I know. He seems to be a political appointee who has not done a good job.


CORRECTION: The ATF hasn't had an regular assigned leader in some time as opposed to a "Deputy" or "Acting" Director. Big difference! I don't know whose fault that is, but to say that the department has been "leaderless" would be untrue.

Did having a "temporary" Acting Director in charge lead to mismanagement or internal policies not being adhered to? Based on the investigator's findings I'd say that would be an accurate assessment. As such, those who fault was found per the investigation are being held accountable. But to put things in their proper perspective, it wasn't Justice Holder's job to run the ATF. His was to run the DOJ. Of course, ATF does come under DOJ purview, but since an Acting Director was assigned I don't think you can hold Justice Holder responsible for someone else's screw up when according to the investigation he didn't have prior knowledge of events.
 
An internal Justice Department investigation into the Operation Fast and Furious scandal released Wednesday singles out 14 different federal officials for criticism and possible disciplinary action. But the report found no evidence that the department’s top leaders knew about the gun-walking aspect of the operation while it was underway.

The long-awaited, 471-page report from Justice’s Inspector General finds misconduct or poor judgment on the part of officials at DOJ headquarters, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in Washington and its field office in Arizona, and the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Arizona in connection with the operation that reportedly allowed as many as 2000 weapons to flow from U.S. gun dealers to Mexican drug cartels.

As the report was being released Wednesday afternoon, Holder announced the departure of two officials criticized in the report: former ATF director Kenneth Melson and Deputy Assistant Attorney General for the Criminal Division Jason Weinstein.

The attorney general announced no action against the head of the Justice Department’s Criminal Division, Lanny Breuer, who was criticized in the report and whose firing has been demanded by Republican lawmakers. However, a senior Justice Department official said Holder “admonished” Breuer over the episode.

2 out at Justice Department after Fast and Furious internal report criticism - Josh Gerstein - POLITICO.com

so lanny was admonished by holder?

who admonished holder?

the ig finds the dept exhibited a "worrisome disregard for public safety"

"the report cites 14 other department employees---including criminal division head lanny breuer -- for potential wrongdoing, recommending the department consider disciplinary action against them."

breuer is one peg away from the addled ag, breuer is the man who forwarded to his private email account a copy of the infamous february 4 letter to congress which doj had to withdraw 10 months later, conceding its misstatement of the facts

and when he testified to congress about the false assertions in the feb 4 letter, doj's criminal division chief forgot to tell committee members of the transaction

"justice department criminal division chief lanny breuer received draft copies of the feb 4, 2011 letter from weinstein and forwarded those messages to his personal email account, which he didn't share in recent congressional testimony about questionable atf tactics in gun cases"

admonished, huh?

weinstein quit today, his people wrote the letter

weinstein knew about gun walking---which the dept in testimony to congress has repeatedly denied any awareness of---in april, 2010, after conversations with william newell in phoenix, the principal fall guy

according to eric holder's own ig

also, applications for wiretaps contained all the dirty details, weinstein signed em and says he never read em

jason weinstein is asst ag, criminal division, one rung below breuer

the ig finds that after the death of brian terry the doj showed no interest in learning what happened, the ignorance of which is the dept's sole excuse

holder spikes the ball in vindication:

“it is unfortunate that some were so quick to make baseless accusations before they possessed the facts about these operations..."

accusations based on the assumption you knew what you were doing?

the ignorant ag continues:

"accusations that turned out to be without foundation and that have caused a great deal of unnecessary harm and confusion"

it's the accusations that caused the harm?

remember brian terry?

daryle issa---he didn't do his job

issa---obama needs to step up

john kyl---"the whole thing is a mess, it’s obvious it’s one of those things where either way, the attorney general can be blamed for what happened---either he didn’t know and should have, or he did and he hasn’t ‘fessed up"

patrick leahy---"it is what it always was, a badly conceived effort by law enforcement field agents to respond to difficult circumstances that went tragically wrong"

yup, all the way up to lanny breuer

the old man from vermont, by the way, is best known as leaky leahy, forced to resign from senate intel for engaging in press-friendly behavior not matched until stuxnet, the kill list, zafridi, the ubl movie, the drones...

politico drops a bomb at the bottom of page 1:

"the wiretap applications themselves are under seal, though issa obtained copies of at least some of them, the doj agreed to [ig michael] horowitz’s request that officials ask a judge to unseal them"

horowitz testifies on the hill on thursday

stay tuned

'Furious' report slams 'disregard' for public safety as DOJ officials quit | Fox News

Justice Withdraws Inaccurate 'Fast And Furious' Letter It Sent To Congress : The Two-Way : NPR
 
About 70,000 docs and emails were withheld from the Congressional Investigators and many of the docs that you say did not exist were eventually turned over to the inspector General.

Failure to turn over the docs and emails under subpoena might be a separation of powers violation.

The Inspector General reviewed the documents and found nothing wrong with Holder's handling of the situation, other than he lack of knowledge about what was going on in Arizona. Failure to turn over documents that are top secret to an open congressoinal hearing is not a separation of powers violation. Holder was not allowed, legally, to turn those documents over. Issa knew this and just wanted to create a scandal where there was none.
 
What was that? I couldn't hear you over the gnashing of teeth coming from the conspiracy brigade! :lol:

So wait, a bunch of piss ants get busted and take the fall for illegally supplying weapons to an unstable nation, and the top officials involved are magically cleared of all wrongdoings. Where have I heard this before....
 
What documents did Obama hold back from the congressional hearing? Holder handed over everything and then some. Issa wanted something that didn't exist. Now that Holder has been cleared, we know Issa was just playing politics by trying to drum up a scandal where there was none.

Documents regarding the operation. Those are the documents Obama gave an executive order not to be released. Since the operation has officially ended in failure, those documents should have been made public... or at least handed over to Congress. They weren't.

I'm not talking about Issa and what he demanded. All of Congress came with a list of demands that Holder must fulfill before a congressional hearing. As some pointed out, he repeatedly came without preparation, without fulfilling the requests and without handing over several documents by making all sort of BS excuses. He couldn't provide straight answers... his testimony kept changing from hearing to hearing. Isn't he supposed to NOT be a politician but a man in the service of his job. He leads the DOJ... people in the service of the law SHOULD NOT be in the service of politicians. Yet he proves us otherwise.

Holder is a shady character.
 
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Documents regarding the operation. Those are the documents Obama gave an executive order not to be released. Since the operation has officially ended in failure, those documents should have been made public... or at least handed over to Congress. They weren't.

I'm not talking about Issa and what he demanded. All of Congress came with a list of demands that Holder must fulfill before a congressional hearing. As some pointed out, he repeatedly came without preparation, without fulfilling the requests and without handing over several documents by making all sort of BS excuses. He couldn't provide straight answers... his testimony kept changing from hearing to hearing. Isn't he supposed to NOT be a politician but a man in the service of his job. He leads the DOJ... people in the service of the law SHOULD NOT be in the service of politicians. Yet he proves us otherwise.

Holder is a shady character.

What law do you base your opinion on that those documents should have been made public of handed over to the congressional hearing? His testimony didn't change from hearing to hearing. He did everything that was in his power to do to comply with the congressional hearing demands. I don't see where you think Holder wasserving politicians. Do you know who first appointed Eric Holder as the Superior Court in DC. It was President Reagan. Eric Holder has been supported by democrats and republicans, so I don't see your point on him serving politicians.
 
What law do you base your opinion on that those documents should have been made public of handed over to the congressional hearing? His testimony didn't change from hearing to hearing. He did everything that was in his power to do to comply with the congressional hearing demands. I don't see where you think Holder wasserving politicians. Do you know who first appointed Eric Holder as the Superior Court in DC. It was President Reagan. Eric Holder has been supported by democrats and republicans, so I don't see your point on him serving politicians.

What law? The law that states that the people are in power. Is the US a democracy or not? Do you want your government to do things behind your back or do you want to know what it is doing? Most importantly, I see this case... and I see so much resemblance with cases in Eastern Europe... where the judiciary branch serves political interests (of whoever is in charge) and in which the law is brutally savaged to suit their needs... where there is no accountability.

His testimony did change. Look at the videos in the eric holder dedicated thread. Or look for videos all over youtube of him giving testimony. or search for articles.

This guy is bad news...
 
The report on Operation Fast and Furious released today by the Justice Department's Office of Inspector General says a member of the White House National Security staff declined to be interviewed for the inspector general's investigation and that the White House itself did not produce internal documents for the investigation because the White House said it was "beyond the purview" of the inspector general.

The report said that an official with the White House National Security Staff declined an interview with the inspector general's office about his communications with Wiliam Newell, who the report said was the Special Agent in Charge of ATF’s Phoenix Field Division.

"We also sought to interview Kevin O’Reilly, an official with the White House National Security Staff, about communications he had in 2010 with Special Agent in Charge William Newell that included information about Operation Fast and Furious," says the IG report. "O’Reilly declined through his personal counsel our request for an interview."

"We sought to interview O’Reilly in light of e-mail communications he had with Special Agent in Charge Bill Newell in 2010," the IG report said in a footnote.

"Newell told us that he did not have direct contact with the White House other than through O’Reilly," said the report. "We requested from the White House any communications concerning Operation Fast and Furious during the relevant time period that were sent to or received from (a) certain ATF employees, including Special Agent in Charge Newell, and (b) certain members of the White House National Security Staff, including Kevin O’Reilly. In response to our request, the White House informed us that the only responsive communications it had with the ATF employees were those between Newell and O’Reilly. The White House indicated that it previously produced those communications to Congress in response to a similar request, and the White House provided us with a copy of those materials.

"The White House did not produce to us any internal White House communications, noting that 'the White House is beyond the purview of the Inspector General’s Office, which has jurisdiction over Department of Justice programs and personnel,'" said the report.

"The records the White House produced did not contain any communications between Newell and O’Reilly that referred to Operation Fast and Furious by name, and the communications that referred to the 'large OCDETF case'--which was Operation Fast and Furious--did not include any information about the case strategy or the tactics agents were using to conduct the investigation.

"We were unable to further investigate the communications between Newell and O’Reilly because O’Reilly declined our request for an interview," said the IG report.

DOJ Fast-and-Furious Report: WH Aide Declined Interview With IG; 'White House Did Not Produce Any Internal White House Communications' | CNSNews.com

if there's nothing to coverup, why look so much like you're covering up?

oreilly is nsa
 
What law? The law that states that the people are in power. Is the US a democracy or not? Do you want your government to do things behind your back or do you want to know what it is doing? Most importantly, I see this case... and I see so much resemblance with cases in Eastern Europe... where the judiciary branch serves political interests (of whoever is in charge) and in which the law is brutally savaged to suit their needs... where there is no accountability.

His testimony did change. Look at the videos in the eric holder dedicated thread. Or look for videos all over youtube of him giving testimony. or search for articles.

This guy is bad news...

You will have to be more specific on where Holder's testemony changed.
There is a lot of information classified top sectret that the govenment doesn't share with the public. I think we all know this. Eric Holder was investigated and was found innocent of the charges the congressional commitee accused him of. This has always been a non issue.
 
So wait, a bunch of piss ants get busted and take the fall for illegally supplying weapons to an unstable nation, and the top officials involved are magically cleared of all wrongdoings. Where have I heard this before....

Actually, the ATF didn't supply weapons. They just didn't go in an arrest dealers when weapons where being purchased that looked suspicious.
 
You will have to be more specific on where Holder's testemony changed.
There is a lot of information classified top sectret that the govenment doesn't share with the public. I think we all know this. Eric Holder was investigated and was found innocent of the charges the congressional commitee accused him of. This has always been a non issue.

GOP Sen. Cornyn Scorches Eric Holder, Tells Him To Resign! - June 12, 2012 - YouTube

This is just one.

This is a pretty accurate video that makes a summary of what holder did in regards to Fast and Furious. FF is a public program. Whislt it was running, the documents should be indeed classified because they could compromise the operation... but it is all over now. They should be released to the public because the public needs to know on what it spent its money on.
 
GOP Sen. Cornyn Scorches Eric Holder, Tells Him To Resign! - June 12, 2012 - YouTube

This is just one.

This is a pretty accurate video that makes a summary of what holder did in regards to Fast and Furious. FF is a public program. Whislt it was running, the documents should be indeed classified because they could compromise the operation... but it is all over now. They should be released to the public because the public needs to know on what it spent its money on.

That video showed that Eric Holder was accused of these things, however, Holder was not given a chance to respond. Now that the independent investigation clears Holder of all wrong doing, it is clear that these aligations are wrong as well. I can see many reasons why the documents do not need to be released to the public.
 
Actually, the ATF didn't supply weapons. They just didn't go in an arrest dealers when weapons where being purchased that looked suspicious.

They "walked" them, meaning they allowed illegal sale to dealers they knew would supply the cartels. They may as well have sold the guns themselves.
 
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