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Thread: ‘Fast & Furious' operation: Justice probe clears Eric Holder

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    Re: ‘Fast & Furious' operation: Justice probe clears Eric Holder

    Quote Originally Posted by tech30528 View Post
    Might have been in one of those security briefings he didn't attend.
    Zing.

    wish they would get rid of this 10 character rule.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

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    Re: ‘Fast & Furious' operation: Justice probe clears Eric Holder

    Quote Originally Posted by tech30528 View Post
    If the system has become so large that it is autonomous and information really is not getting to those who should know about it it needs to be changed and this program highlights that. It is illegal for a person to use a "spring trap" for home defense, a device or system that can trigger without oversight such as a shotgun pointed at a door that will fire if the door is open. Th reasoning is rather obvious. This program resulted in many deaths. Not fixing a system like this is the same as that shotgun. It is indiscriminate killing and should be dealt with strongly whether it is an individual or a government program.
    Well it is different than a shotgun leveled at the door. These are human beings that are making these decisions at the ground level.

    It will also happen in any large entity. It wasn't but a couple of months ago that a trader at Chase...which is widely believed one of the best ran banks had a trader that lost the company 6 billion dollars.

    No entity is infaliable. The difference between government and Wal Mart is that government is in charge of life and death situations and screw ups can cost lives. The stakes are higher but it's still people in charge and it still can only operate with some sort of autonomy granted to the parts of the big machine.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: ‘Fast & Furious' operation: Justice probe clears Eric Holder

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    So what's your point.
    My point was that the Dept of Justice falls under the responsibility of the President, and thus, any scandal which happens in it is a scandal of the Administration, and therefore, yes indeed, it reflects on the President.

    No one said Obama was personally involved in it.


    Once again...please detail me the differences between Fast and Furious and Wide Receiver. The only difference I can see is one was done under Bush...the other by Obama. Same office, same tactic.
    Wide Receiver wasn't under investigation. Fast and Furious did not need to be initiated, yet it was. You cannot blame the Bush administration here.

    If you want to make the argument that Wide Receiver should have received the same attention, then that's a different argument, which does not absolve a thing which happened in Fast and Furious. Of course, all it really does is the usual thing -- defending the Obama Administration by saying the Worst Administration Ever (TM) did the same thing, once again making the Obama Administration ALSO the Worst Administration Ever (TM). I really don't know where you think it gets you.


    Conservative reasoning...something that happens in a branch office of the ATF in Arizona...Obama's fault. A major terrorists attack on US soil? Nobody's fault...just systematic problems with the bureacracy. It's a load of horse**** honestly. I'm just glad the elctorate isn't as blind.
    Now you're seriously deflecting. I didn't say anything about Bush. Bush is gone. Let him go.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: ‘Fast & Furious' operation: Justice probe clears Eric Holder

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    No entity is infaliable. The difference between government and Wal Mart is that government is in charge of life and death situations and screw ups can cost lives.
    The problem is that the ATF has been killing through incompetence, extortion, lies, and coercion for a very long time. Since at least 1990, the ATF has been plagued with fatal scandals.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

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    Re: ‘Fast & Furious' operation: Justice probe clears Eric Holder

    Quote Originally Posted by Surtr View Post
    The problem is that the ATF has been killing through incompetence, extortion, lies, and coercion for a very long time. Since at least 1990, the ATF has been plagued with fatal scandals.
    That may be the case...maybe the ATF needs to be radically changed or abolished and I don't know.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: ‘Fast & Furious' operation: Justice probe clears Eric Holder

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Well it is different than a shotgun leveled at the door. These are human beings that are making these decisions at the ground level.

    It will also happen in any large entity. It wasn't but a couple of months ago that a trader at Chase...which is widely believed one of the best ran banks had a trader that lost the company 6 billion dollars.

    No entity is infaliable. The difference between government and Wal Mart is that government is in charge of life and death situations and screw ups can cost lives. The stakes are higher but it's still people in charge and it still can only operate with some sort of autonomy granted to the parts of the big machine.
    If that autonomy results in deaths then the system being used needs to be done away with. In the case of Chase or WalMart the casualty is money. When people are dying it is absolutely imperative that it functions as designed. I own an auto repair shop, imagine if I worked on someone's car and a wheel came off going down the road resulting in fatalities. Do you think "well, it doesn't happen often" would be acceptable? When it comes to innocent lives, the acceptable margin for error is zero.

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    Re: ‘Fast & Furious' operation: Justice probe clears Eric Holder

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    That may be the case...maybe the ATF needs to be radically changed or abolished and I don't know.
    That about sums it up. Print that bigger and in color and this thread is over.

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    Re: ‘Fast & Furious' operation: Justice probe clears Eric Holder

    Now you're seriously deflecting. I didn't say anything about Bush. Bush is gone. Let him go.
    No I'm pointing out a major logical inconsistency that is showing how irrational your views are.

    If you believe the buck stops at Obama with anything that happens under his watch than you should blame Bush for 9/11. Of course I take the other view...that Obama and Bush are both dealing with a massive government structure in which there's no way on earth they can know everything that's going on at everytime. In fact they depend on that structure to inform them of situations.

    My point was that the Dept of Justice falls under the responsibility of the President, and thus, any scandal which happens in it is a scandal of the Administration, and therefore, yes indeed, it reflects on the President.

    No one said Obama was personally involved in it.
    Sure...to some degree. To conservatives it's a major scandal. To most Americans it seems to be an unfortunate situation that should be prevented from ever happening again.

    Wide Receiver wasn't under investigation. Fast and Furious did not need to be initiated, yet it was. You cannot blame the Bush administration here.
    Of course not...I blame the field office and individuals that made the mistake of using the same tactics they used under Wide Receiver. How on earth can you say the two aren't connected? Wide Receiver was inititiated to stop gun trafficking. It was initiated in the same Arizona ATF field office. When Department of Justice officials stated they needed to do something about gun traffiking the field office decides to re-implement the same policy they had used previously to stop gun trafficking.

    If you want to make the argument that Wide Receiver should have received the same attention, then that's a different argument, which does not absolve a thing which happened in Fast and Furious. Of course, all it really does is the usual thing -- defending the Obama Administration by saying the Worst Administration Ever (TM) did the same thing, once again making the Obama Administration ALSO the Worst Administration Ever (TM). I really don't know where you think it gets you.
    No...I don't think Wide Receiver should receive the same attention. In fact I think it's come to light how dumb both operations were and they should never be reimplemented. Holder has insured that takes place.

    It doesn't absolve the lunacy of Fast and Furious...which isn't my point of mentioning operation WR. My point in mentioning Wide Receiver from the get go is to point out it's not some new fangled policy created by Holder. It's a field office reimplementing an previous policy they had used to go after gun traffickers. It's bad policy period. No matter who orders it. In the new form...under the new name Fast and Furious it resulted in the death of an American. The bad policy was brought to light and the individuals that were shown to be involved are getting fired or resigning. To me that's what you would expect. It's conservatives that think it's some cudgel with which to beat up on the Obama administration.

    I don't even know why I'm on here talking about this for so long because this issue is resolved to most Americans and for those it's not resolved....it's purely politics.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: ‘Fast & Furious' operation: Justice probe clears Eric Holder

    Quote Originally Posted by tech30528 View Post
    If that autonomy results in deaths then the system being used needs to be done away with. In the case of Chase or WalMart the casualty is money. When people are dying it is absolutely imperative that it functions as designed. I own an auto repair shop, imagine if I worked on someone's car and a wheel came off going down the road resulting in fatalities. Do you think "well, it doesn't happen often" would be acceptable? When it comes to innocent lives, the acceptable margin for error is zero.
    Of course not...but there are differences. If an officer makes a bad call that ends in the death of some of his soldiers he shouldn't be punished. Those decisions need to be made...and they are life or death. Nobody is going to make the right one everytime.

    You should check out "Fog of War". It's a documentary on Robert McNamarra....it's a great documentary and in it Robert McNamarra states it perfectly. He's not perfect, he made mistakes, but he had to make decisions and those decisions almost everytime could result in major concequences. Nobody is going to be right 100% of the time but your job is to make A decision on the best information you have available and if it's the wrong one never make the same mistake twice.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: ‘Fast & Furious' operation: Justice probe clears Eric Holder

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    That may be the case...maybe the ATF needs to be radically changed or abolished and I don't know.
    In 1990, an undercover ATF agent forced a man name Randy Weaver to shorten the barrel of a shotgun to a length that would force it to be registered and taxed as an SBR, and sell it to another undercover ATF agent. He was arrested, but released due to entrapment. In turn, the ATF put a notice out that Weaver was a bank robber, a militant radical, was armed and dangerous, and that he had secret tunnels under his house. This resulted in the US Marshals wounding Weaver, and killing his wife.

    In 1993, the ATF assaulted a compound in Waco, Tx. They violated Posse Comitatus by lying to the National Guard to gain their assistance, which resulted in the ignition of the compound, and deaths of innocent women and children.

    From 2004-2005, the ATF conducted sting operations at 8 different gun shows in Virginia. They primarily targeted women. They would allow the people to purchase firearms from the gun shows, then stopped them as they were driving home, illegally detained them without warrant, illegally confiscated their purchases, then forced them to report to the ATF offices under threat of imprisonment to "justify" their purchases. They then continued this operation in Pittsburgh, where they would wait a week later after a customer made a purchase at a gun show so they could illegally search the persons home without warrant. Anyone who refused was illegally detained. The operation was brought under Congressional investigation. None of the people harassed and intimidated by the ATF were guilty of any crime.

    In 2008 IG filed a report after a 5 year audit that 76 firearms, and 418 laptop computers had gone missing from the ATFs inventory. Those items were never recovered.

    The ATF not only redefines incompetence, they're a danger to everyone around them. They should have been dissolved a long time ago, and every agent within the ATF blacklisted so they never work in the field of law enforcement ever again.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

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