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Thread: ‘Fast & Furious' operation: Justice probe clears Eric Holder

  1. #31
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    Re: ‘Fast & Furious' operation: Justice probe clears Eric Holder

    Quote Originally Posted by code1211 View Post
    This White House makes the Nixon White house look like the cleanest and most trustworthy group since Mother Theresa had a Rosary night.
    Your opinion is, in the end, worthless to me or the facts.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: ‘Fast & Furious' operation: Justice probe clears Eric Holder

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Clearly, the only way this not-guilty verdict would have satisfied you would be if the investigation were conducted by an independent investigator hand picked by Congressman Issa himself. I wound at what point will people start to set their partisanship aside and allow professional ethics and integrity rule the day?

    Republicans had their day in court (so to speak). Chief Justice Holder was cleared of the charge of having fore-knowledge of the Fast and Furious gun running scandal. Eleven members of the Obama Administration won't get away unpunished, however. Nonetheless, time to let it go and move on. Don't be bitter and do as Congressman Issa did attempting to the issue to drum up additional faults against Justice Holder and President Obama as the book is closed on this case.



    Tacky for sure! Just admit defeat and move on.



    It's not incompetence when members from the ATF kept information from senior Justice Department officials. Maybe those individuals were attempting to cover their own butts. Maybe the ATF didn't want to involve another department concerning their screw up. Maybe senior DOJ officials below Chief Justice Holder didn't want to involve him in the ordeal. Whatever the case, it's pretty clear Holder knew very little about FF BEFORE the scandal broke loose. So, as I said above, let it go, folks. There's nothing more to see here.



    The "hide/destroy the evidence" montra isn't new. You do recall the Iran/Contra Affair from the Reagan era, right? What did Col. Oliver North do? Answer: Exactly what he was told and destroyed evidence. While there is no evidence such actions were taken here w/FF, I get what you're eluding to. Unfortunately, it makes the Republican decree to "search for the truth" seem quite hollow after the fact.


    Are you saying that there is nothing hidden in all of this and that we know everything there is to know about Fast and Furious?
    I am not of the mind that a man is either of science or of religion. At his best and his worst, man exists in the misty glimmering where the falling angel meets the rising ape. That he chooses a direction from that point defines him as human.

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    Re: ‘Fast & Furious' operation: Justice probe clears Eric Holder

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    Then what is it when your underlings are so poorly managed that an operation of this scope is concealed from you? The ATFE hasn't had leadership for years now. Whose fault is that? Holder, Obama, Romney, Objective Voice or Specklebang? Please pick one from that list. If it's my fault, I'll take full responsibility and if it's not my fault, I hope someone will.

    I hope you know my POV on this isn't partisan. It just seems like a giant management failure and I tend to blame the managers, not the flunkies. Of course, I could be wrong....

    The problem in this and in everything about the Obama administration is that nobody takes responsibility for anything. Obama is still blaming Bush for goodness sakes.

    They know all of the answers, but they never find the solutions and never ever accept the fact that they continuously make mistakes that cost, time, money and the misery of the people.

    This is the least effective most incompetent administration in the history of the republic.
    I am not of the mind that a man is either of science or of religion. At his best and his worst, man exists in the misty glimmering where the falling angel meets the rising ape. That he chooses a direction from that point defines him as human.

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    Re: ‘Fast & Furious' operation: Justice probe clears Eric Holder

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Your opinion is, in the end, worthless to me or the facts.


    Unless my opinion was endorsed by the DNC, I would not expect it to have any value for you.
    I am not of the mind that a man is either of science or of religion. At his best and his worst, man exists in the misty glimmering where the falling angel meets the rising ape. That he chooses a direction from that point defines him as human.

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    Re: ‘Fast & Furious' operation: Justice probe clears Eric Holder

    Quote Originally Posted by code1211 View Post
    Unless my opinion was endorsed by the DNC, I would not expect it to have any value for you.
    Well, your opinion is not endorsed by anything other than yourself. That's what makes it worthless. And it has nothing to do with who you are, it the fact that you're just one guy one the internet demanding proof that there isn't a conspiracy. When it's backed up by any facts or anything other than your own dogmatic beliefs, call me maybe?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: ‘Fast & Furious' operation: Justice probe clears Eric Holder

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    Then what is it when your underlings are so poorly managed that an operation of this scope is concealed from you? The ATFE hasn't had leadership for years now. Whose fault is that? Holder, Obama, Romney, Objective Voice or Specklebang? Please pick one from that list. If it's my fault, I'll take full responsibility and if it's not my fault, I hope someone will.

    I hope you know my POV on this isn't partisan. It just seems like a giant management failure and I tend to blame the managers, not the flunkies. Of course, I could be wrong....
    CORRECTION: The ATF hasn't had an regular assigned leader in some time as opposed to a "Deputy" or "Acting" Director. Big difference! I don't know whose fault that is, but to say that the department has been "leaderless" would be untrue.

    Did having a "temporary" Acting Director in charge lead to mismanagement or internal policies not being adhered to? Based on the investigator's findings I'd say that would be an accurate assessment. As such, those who fault was found per the investigation are being held accountable. But to put things in their proper perspective, it wasn't Justice Holder's job to run the ATF. His was to run the DOJ. Of course, ATF does come under DOJ purview, but since an Acting Director was assigned I don't think you can hold Justice Holder responsible for someone else's screw up when according to the investigation he didn't have prior knowledge of events.

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    Re: ‘Fast & Furious' operation: Justice probe clears Eric Holder

    Quote Originally Posted by code1211 View Post
    Are you saying that there is nothing hidden in all of this and that we know everything there is to know about Fast and Furious?
    No, not necessarily. What I'm saying is based on all the evidence that was laid bare none pointed directly at Justice Holder for negligence or witholding information. I'm sure there are aspects of this case the public will never know about. But based on the evidence, the anvil can't be dropped on Holder's head (as much as many people would have liked that to happen).

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    Re: ‘Fast & Furious' operation: Justice probe clears Eric Holder

    Then was it not part of Mr. Holders job to assign a director? This reeks of poor management. The ATFE is a heavily armed police agency. You'd think that having someone firmly in charge would be a priority.

    Holder is not a Justice as far as I know. He seems to be a political appointee who has not done a good job.


    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    CORRECTION: The ATF hasn't had an regular assigned leader in some time as opposed to a "Deputy" or "Acting" Director. Big difference! I don't know whose fault that is, but to say that the department has been "leaderless" would be untrue.

    Did having a "temporary" Acting Director in charge lead to mismanagement or internal policies not being adhered to? Based on the investigator's findings I'd say that would be an accurate assessment. As such, those who fault was found per the investigation are being held accountable. But to put things in their proper perspective, it wasn't Justice Holder's job to run the ATF. His was to run the DOJ. Of course, ATF does come under DOJ purview, but since an Acting Director was assigned I don't think you can hold Justice Holder responsible for someone else's screw up when according to the investigation he didn't have prior knowledge of events.

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    Re: ‘Fast & Furious' operation: Justice probe clears Eric Holder

    An internal Justice Department investigation into the Operation Fast and Furious scandal released Wednesday singles out 14 different federal officials for criticism and possible disciplinary action. But the report found no evidence that the department’s top leaders knew about the gun-walking aspect of the operation while it was underway.

    The long-awaited, 471-page report from Justice’s Inspector General finds misconduct or poor judgment on the part of officials at DOJ headquarters, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in Washington and its field office in Arizona, and the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Arizona in connection with the operation that reportedly allowed as many as 2000 weapons to flow from U.S. gun dealers to Mexican drug cartels.

    As the report was being released Wednesday afternoon, Holder announced the departure of two officials criticized in the report: former ATF director Kenneth Melson and Deputy Assistant Attorney General for the Criminal Division Jason Weinstein.

    The attorney general announced no action against the head of the Justice Department’s Criminal Division, Lanny Breuer, who was criticized in the report and whose firing has been demanded by Republican lawmakers. However, a senior Justice Department official said Holder “admonished” Breuer over the episode.
    2 out at Justice Department after Fast and Furious internal report criticism - Josh Gerstein - POLITICO.com

    so lanny was admonished by holder?

    who admonished holder?

    the ig finds the dept exhibited a "worrisome disregard for public safety"

    "the report cites 14 other department employees---including criminal division head lanny breuer -- for potential wrongdoing, recommending the department consider disciplinary action against them."

    breuer is one peg away from the addled ag, breuer is the man who forwarded to his private email account a copy of the infamous february 4 letter to congress which doj had to withdraw 10 months later, conceding its misstatement of the facts

    and when he testified to congress about the false assertions in the feb 4 letter, doj's criminal division chief forgot to tell committee members of the transaction

    "justice department criminal division chief lanny breuer received draft copies of the feb 4, 2011 letter from weinstein and forwarded those messages to his personal email account, which he didn't share in recent congressional testimony about questionable atf tactics in gun cases"

    admonished, huh?

    weinstein quit today, his people wrote the letter

    weinstein knew about gun walking---which the dept in testimony to congress has repeatedly denied any awareness of---in april, 2010, after conversations with william newell in phoenix, the principal fall guy

    according to eric holder's own ig

    also, applications for wiretaps contained all the dirty details, weinstein signed em and says he never read em

    jason weinstein is asst ag, criminal division, one rung below breuer

    the ig finds that after the death of brian terry the doj showed no interest in learning what happened, the ignorance of which is the dept's sole excuse

    holder spikes the ball in vindication:

    “it is unfortunate that some were so quick to make baseless accusations before they possessed the facts about these operations..."

    accusations based on the assumption you knew what you were doing?

    the ignorant ag continues:

    "accusations that turned out to be without foundation and that have caused a great deal of unnecessary harm and confusion"

    it's the accusations that caused the harm?

    remember brian terry?

    daryle issa---he didn't do his job

    issa---obama needs to step up

    john kyl---"the whole thing is a mess, it’s obvious it’s one of those things where either way, the attorney general can be blamed for what happened---either he didn’t know and should have, or he did and he hasn’t ‘fessed up"

    patrick leahy---"it is what it always was, a badly conceived effort by law enforcement field agents to respond to difficult circumstances that went tragically wrong"

    yup, all the way up to lanny breuer

    the old man from vermont, by the way, is best known as leaky leahy, forced to resign from senate intel for engaging in press-friendly behavior not matched until stuxnet, the kill list, zafridi, the ubl movie, the drones...

    politico drops a bomb at the bottom of page 1:

    "the wiretap applications themselves are under seal, though issa obtained copies of at least some of them, the doj agreed to [ig michael] horowitz’s request that officials ask a judge to unseal them"

    horowitz testifies on the hill on thursday

    stay tuned

    'Furious' report slams 'disregard' for public safety as DOJ officials quit | Fox News

    Justice Withdraws Inaccurate 'Fast And Furious' Letter It Sent To Congress : The Two-Way : NPR

  10. #40
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    Re: ‘Fast & Furious' operation: Justice probe clears Eric Holder

    Quote Originally Posted by code1211 View Post
    About 70,000 docs and emails were withheld from the Congressional Investigators and many of the docs that you say did not exist were eventually turned over to the inspector General.

    Failure to turn over the docs and emails under subpoena might be a separation of powers violation.
    The Inspector General reviewed the documents and found nothing wrong with Holder's handling of the situation, other than he lack of knowledge about what was going on in Arizona. Failure to turn over documents that are top secret to an open congressoinal hearing is not a separation of powers violation. Holder was not allowed, legally, to turn those documents over. Issa knew this and just wanted to create a scandal where there was none.

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