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Thread: NATO Disasters Stack Up In Afghanistan

  1. #31
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    Re: NATO Disasters Stack Up In Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    Be kind of sending the wrong message.
    Obama does seem to be a master at sending the wrong message...
    "We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
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    Re: NATO Disasters Stack Up In Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    Supporting tyrants and suppressing democracy is good in your world? It's a good thing the rest of the worlds view of America differs.
    You seem to be confuse with those who do not believe that the ends justifies the means with supporting someone. Many who did not like Obama's actions in Libya and elsewhere did not dislike the actions because they supported Qaddafi or anyone else. What the do recognize is that if you allow Obama to act without taking the proper steps, then it sets the precedent for all future presidents to do the same. While you may agree with the results that Obama tried to achieve in this and other things where he short circuited the system, keep in mind that because he was allowed to, all future presidents now have a precedent to do so also and the results they desire may not be to your liking.

    You may have liked him taking the actions in Libya, but because of the way he did it, what happens when a future President takes similar actions someplace you don't support, he is just following precedent set down by Obama.

    You may like his executive orders on immigration and welfare, but what happens if the next President is someone who uses the same methodology to dismantle environmental laws or something else you support, again, he will be following the precedent established by Obama.

    By supporting Obama's questionable and illegal means to accomplish ends you want, you allow such means to be used in the future for whatever ends that President has in mind. By not holding Obama accountable for his actions because they support his ends and allow him any means necessary to achieve them, the Dems in Congress have weakened the Congress as a whole and their future ability to hold any future President accountable.

    So in the Future, when a Republican President, or hopefully someday an Independent, takes similar actions you don't like, don't be on here bitching and complaining they are doing something illegal or unconstitutional when, by voting for Obama, you are partly responsible for them being able to do it.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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    Re: NATO Disasters Stack Up In Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    So in the Future, when a Republican President, or hopefully someday an Independent, takes similar actions you don't like, don't be on here bitching and complaining they are doing something illegal or unconstitutional when, by voting for Obama, you are partly responsible for them being able to do it.
    Nonsense. The argument above is basically ~"if you get what you want, then you gotta stfu". That's not how it works. People speak out. Congress looks at it. The SC looks at it. If enough people OR representatives OR the SC think something was illegal, we (the people) prosecute. Testing the legality, by questioning the legality, is part of the US system and we're always gonna do it. We're not goin' with the dictator option, let's not pretend we are.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 09-19-12 at 01:03 PM.

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    Re: NATO Disasters Stack Up In Afghanistan

    Well our military has fought many 'wars' that congress never declared war, infact since the Tonkin Resolution Presidents have taken over war declaring as well as being commander in chief. (FYI as commander in Chief the President has done his duty. he has held the military accountable and again the comparison to Nixon trying to get us the hell out of Vietnam- Nixon launched secret attacks, invasion in to Cambodia, mining the harbors in the North... secret deals with the North and South...)

    As far as the ends justifying the means- that pretty much sums up BushII's push to attack Iraq. Any lie was flung into the mix and as it was batted down a new one tossed in. yellow cake, centrifuge tubes, meetings in Prague... the ends justify the means.

    I realize the right is trying very hard to paint President Obama's lack of cowboy swagger and snickering style as a failure to lead, but the fact is no President or nation can 'manage' 6 other nations in the Middle East to everyone's satisfaction. some on the right would have us invade Libya, prop up Mubarak, bomb the crap out of Syria and supply the rebels with advanced arms.

    The cost of which would be staggering, so I guess the Right would write another check for others to pay.

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    Re: NATO Disasters Stack Up In Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Well our military has fought many 'wars' that congress never declared war, infact since the Tonkin Resolution Presidents have taken over war declaring as well as being commander in chief.
    It's a tradition that stretches back to the "shores of Tripoli" two centuries ago. There is a fascinating (and very readable) history of small conflicts in The Savage Wars Of Peace: Small Wars And The Rise Of American Power by Max Boot.
    "We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
    - Abraham Lincoln

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    Re: NATO Disasters Stack Up In Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Nonsense. The argument above is basically ~"if you get what you want, then you gotta stfu". That's not how it works. People speak out. Congress looks at it. The SC looks at it. If enough people OR representatives OR the SC think something was illegal, we (the people) prosecute. Testing the legality, by questioning the legality, is part of the US system and we're always gonna do it. We're not goin' with the dictator option, let's not pretend we are.
    I disagree, but you can hold on to your opinion. I do believe that Obama has acted incorrectly/unconstitutionally and no one has held him accountable, as of yet. When did the SC revue and approve his executive orders? Where is their published opinion on them? Where was the debate or consideration in Congress of taking action? The Republicans knew without any doubt that they could not win such actions with a Dem majority in the Senate, so they never wasted the time and money to pursue it. The people, at present, don't seem to be overly concerned about it either, they care far more about their entitlements or taxes from the government than how the government actually works or what it does outside of their entitlements and taxes. And I do believe that going with Obama is supporting the dictator option. That is my opinion and I will hold onto it, and I believe the available data supports my opinion.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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    Re: NATO Disasters Stack Up In Afghanistan

    Ollie North is a hero.

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    Re: NATO Disasters Stack Up In Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    Supporting tyrants and suppressing democracy is good in your world? It's a good thing the rest of the worlds view of America differs.
    According to Obama and Biden, Maubarak was not a dictator. He was an ally. They have no justification for abandoning him.


    “Look, Mubarak has been an ally of ours in a number of things,” Biden told PBS Newshour, “and he’s been very responsible on, relative to geopolitical interests in the region: Middle East peace efforts, the actions Egypt has taken relative to normalizing the relationship with Israel.”





    “I would not refer to him as a dictator,” he added.

    Raw Story (Biden: Egypt leader Mubarak not a ‘dictator,’ shouldn’t step down | The Raw Story)

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    Re: NATO Disasters Stack Up In Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Well our military has fought many 'wars' that congress never declared war, infact since the Tonkin Resolution Presidents have taken over war declaring as well as being commander in chief. (FYI as commander in Chief the President has done his duty. he has held the military accountable and again the comparison to Nixon trying to get us the hell out of Vietnam- Nixon launched secret attacks, invasion in to Cambodia, mining the harbors in the North... secret deals with the North and South...)

    As far as the ends justifying the means- that pretty much sums up BushII's push to attack Iraq. Any lie was flung into the mix and as it was batted down a new one tossed in. yellow cake, centrifuge tubes, meetings in Prague... the ends justify the means.

    I realize the right is trying very hard to paint President Obama's lack of cowboy swagger and snickering style as a failure to lead, but the fact is no President or nation can 'manage' 6 other nations in the Middle East to everyone's satisfaction. some on the right would have us invade Libya, prop up Mubarak, bomb the crap out of Syria and supply the rebels with advanced arms.

    The cost of which would be staggering, so I guess the Right would write another check for others to pay.
    Waging war doesnt require declaration, so why does it matter?

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    Re: NATO Disasters Stack Up In Afghanistan

    Seems many on the Right are sticklers for the Constitution, when it suits like the 2nd amendment, Congress declares war according to the Constitution. I suppose if the Constitution was a living document and modern warfare doesn't have time to obey the Constitution then congress can be bypassed

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