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Thread: "Innocence of Muslims" the film that caused the protests

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    Re: "Innocence of Muslims" the film that caused the protests

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    I'm not saying that's the case. At the same time...this is the response the film maker was going for! This wasn't a film for neo-nazi's to jerk off to. This was produced for a reaction from the Muslim community. These folks relish in the idea that they will cause conflict.
    That's already escalating the criticism.
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    Re: "Innocence of Muslims" the film that caused the protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    The evidence is in the NPR articles which where the result of an investigation by their reporters into who the producer was since he used a fake name. You've commented on a story which you clearly haven't read and made yourself out to be an idiot by denying something clearly stated in the story, congratulations. So yes the man may be an elderly Jewish man, or perhaps he's a Egyptian Coptic Christian, or perhaps he doesn't exist at all and the film was produced by 2 or more people jointly and they decided to use this one fake name for the producer role.
    The article ends with "What's safe to say now is that we should look at those claims with a great deal of skepticism" yet you repeat that it may be an elderly Jewish man or a Coptic Christian, despite the warning and without having any evidence to support these claims.

    By the way I hope to Christ you aren't suggesting any anti-Semitic feelings on my part.
    Perhaps there aren't any intentional anti-Semitic feelings on your part but it does seem clear you are a dupe who will repeat whatever slander the BBC and NPR offers you.

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    Re: "Innocence of Muslims" the film that caused the protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    That's already escalating the criticism.
    So talking about the intent of the film is escalating criticism? When exactly has a film ever been discussed without talking about the intent of the film maker or the ramifications of what he's created.
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    Re: "Innocence of Muslims" the film that caused the protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    By implying that merely stating they're protected by the First Amendment is "defending" them. I haven't seen anyone defend the video. Have you? Can you point me to it?

    But the rest of what I said stands -- why is it necessary to then turn around and condemn the people who made the video? You're the one who links the two. If "nothing" justifies what the mob did, then why is the condemnation also in order? It's a ridiculous video, but they didn't kill anyone.
    You are defending their film, by asking why its necessary to condemn the people who made the video and the message in it you're implying that is not necessary. However I always find it necessary to condemn people who produce speech for the sole purpose of angering other people to violence, since when is that kind of speech acceptable? And by acceptable I mean "socially acceptable" not "legally acceptable" I swear to Christ I'm getting sick of having to repeat myself so many times that its legally protected speech.

    What if a man was standing along the road holding a sign and preaching a message about how the Jews were behind the Holocaust, that they are subhumans who use the blood of virgin boys to bake their bread, or something just as stupid and then another man, who doesn't even have to be Jewish himself, came along and started attacking this man, who is responsible for the violence? Both of them in my opinion, although one is legally responsible because speech is no justification for assault while the other was merely exercising his rights however that doesn't mean I can't or won't condemn the man in every possible way for creating speech that served no purpose but to incite hate and violence in other people.

    Just like the Muslims are responsible for their actions of violence, even though they were provoked and angered that doesn't justify their actions. However nothing justifies the kind of speech used in this film either, but speech doesn't require justification to use, violence does.

    We as a society need to condemn the kind of people who use this kind of speech, give them none of our ears and let them rant and rave to an audience that isn't there just like we condemn holocaust deniers or white supremacists.

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    Re: "Innocence of Muslims" the film that caused the protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The article ends with "What's safe to say now is that we should look at those claims with a great deal of skepticism" yet you repeat that it may be an elderly Jewish man or a Coptic Christian, despite the warning and without having any evidence to support these claims.

    Perhaps there aren't any intentional anti-Semitic feelings on your part but it does seem clear you are a dupe who will repeat whatever slander the BBC and NPR offers you.
    That's why I used the word "may." Sometimes I link the dictionary for people who have trouble figuring out what words mean, do I really need to do the same here?

    And if you have a more accurate source I'd love to see it but until then Ill go with NPR and BBC, I think they are more credible than you alone

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    Re: "Innocence of Muslims" the film that caused the protests

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    So talking about the intent of the film is escalating criticism? When exactly has a film ever been discussed without talking about the intent of the film maker or the ramifications of what he's created.
    Since it's absurd to suggest that these men are practically using them like marionettes.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: "Innocence of Muslims" the film that caused the protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    That's why I used the word "may." Sometimes I link the dictionary for people who have trouble figuring out what words mean, do I really need to do the same here?

    And if you have a more accurate source I'd love to see it but until then Ill go with NPR and BBC, I think they are more credible than you alone
    Yes, and it may be Muslims themselves or Mexican border jumpers. You don't know and neither does the BBC or NPR, yet you repeat the canard that it MAY BE "an elderly Jewish man". It may be anyone, and even the article says nothing is known about who it might be.

    You think the BBC and NPR are more credible than I am yet we all say that we don't know who is responsible. Only you said it may be "an elderly Jewish man or an Egyptian Coptic Christian" a statement that would surely demonstrate a lack of knowledge, or credibility, about anything relating to the makers of this film.

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    Re: "Innocence of Muslims" the film that caused the protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    What if a man was standing along the road holding a sign and preaching a message about how the Jews were behind the Holocaust, that they are subhumans who use the blood of virgin boys to bake their bread, or something just as stupid and then another man, who doesn't even have to be Jewish himself, came along and started attacking this man, who is responsible for the violence? Both of them in my opinion, although one is legally responsible because speech is no justification for assault while the other was merely exercising his rights however that doesn't mean I can't or won't condemn the man in every possible way for creating speech that served no purpose but to incite hate and violence in other people.
    See, to me, the immediacy of contact is the key component to your example. While it is little excuse to become violent, the possibility of violence, the personal touch is so much more potent at that close of contact. What are talking about is a film, a thing produced in some far away land, not being shown in their own district, no massive media coverage anywhere about the film, the filmmakers nowhere in sight, no governments promoting it, nothing.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 09-13-12 at 04:12 PM.
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    Re: "Innocence of Muslims" the film that caused the protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    You are defending their film, by asking why its necessary to condemn the people who made the video and the message in it you're implying that is not necessary.
    See, you're doing what I said. I'm not defending the film. I'm defending their freedom to do it, only.

    I don't care what was in the film; it's completely irrelevant. You said so yourself when you said nothing justifies what they did. If nothing justifies it, then the film doesn't matter.

    But apparently, the film does matter, so I guess you think it justifies it at least a little.


    What if a man was standing along the road holding a sign and preaching a message about how the Jews were behind the Holocaust, that they are subhumans who use the blood of virgin boys to bake their bread, or something just as stupid and then another man, who doesn't even have to be Jewish himself, came along and started attacking this man, who is responsible for the violence?

    What if what the mob was complaining about was women showing too much skin, which is something else they tend to get offended by? Would you then claim that to say "screw you, get over it; they'll wear what they want" isn't enough, and the women should be lectured about sensitivity in their clothing choices? Of course you wouldn't, and neither would anyone else. It's exactly the same principle. Exactly.

    You're bringing up hypotheticals, so that one seems far more apt.


    but speech doesn't require justification to use
    Apparently you think it does, if you claim, as you do, that standing up for their free speech without condemning it is the same as defending the video.

    We as a society need to condemn the kind of people who use this kind of speech
    But when you do it in the same breath as condemning the mob incensed by it, you're partially justifying the mob. You could leave them as two separate thoughts, which they actually are, but you don't. You've linked the two together several times now.
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    Re: "Innocence of Muslims" the film that caused the protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Yes, and it may be Muslims themselves or Mexican border jumpers. You don't know and neither does the BBC or NPR, yet you repeat the canard that it MAY BE "an elderly Jewish man". It may be anyone, and even the article says nothing is known about who it might be.

    You think the BBC and NPR are more credible than I am yet we all say that we don't know who is responsible. Only you said it may be "an elderly Jewish man or an Egyptian Coptic Christian" a statement that would surely demonstrate a lack of knowledge, or credibility, about anything relating to the makers of this film.
    So your logic is that because the BBC and NPR are unsure of who the producer is, although hints have pointed to one of these two individuals, they have no credibility about anything relating to the makers of the film? I'm sorry I wasn't aware that not knowing something for sure, meant that all your other information is automatically invalid.

    You'd make an excellent investigator you know "I found the suspect with the murder weapon, he's covered in the victim's blood, but I'm not sure what he had for breakfast this morning so all my other information lacks credibility too"

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