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Thread: US Median Income Lowest Since 1995

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    Re: US Median Income Lowest Since 1995

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Stupid Keynesian Stimulus. Stupid Bailouts. Stupid Deficit spending.
    Very poor comparison. Your problem here lies in the fact that while all of these things did in fact occur, none of them was stupid. In fact, each of them was a key contributor to assuring that the complete financial fiasco created by BushCo did not morph into something far worse than what it actually did. That was quite an accomplishmnt -- something more than what even optimists of the day had dared to hope for.

    What meanwhile did the stupid tax cuts, the stupid wars, and the stupid policies leading to a stupid recession accomplish? All of those actually led or helped lead to disastrous crash-and-burn outcomes and scenarios. Way to go, George!

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    Re: US Median Income Lowest Since 1995

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    It will be hard to separate the 2, but lemme give it a try.
    That's great! We get lament after right-wing lament over the horrors of euro-socialism, and then it turns out that all these countries are actually beacons of free-market driven entrepreneurship. How many faces do you all have, anyway? It's plainly at least two.

    Here is a perhaps more enlightening measure of who is a socialist and who isn't. The data are from 2007, as everything that's been published since has been scrambled to bits by the effects of and reaction to the Great Bush Recession...

    In these countries, federal spending is at least 50% of GDP:
    France, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, Malta, Qatar, Kuwait, Belgium, Norway, Netherlands, Italy, Austria, Finland, Portugal, United Kingdom.

    In these countries, federal spending is 40-50% of GDP:
    Germany, Canada, Spain, New Zealand, Israel, Australia, Ireland, Saudi Arabia.

    In these countries, federal spending is 30-40% of GDP:
    Switzerland, Luxembourg, South Africa, Japan, United Arab Emirates

    In these countries, federal spending is 20-30% of GDP:
    India, Russia, China, Poland

    In this country, federal spending is less than 20% of GDP:
    United States of America

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    Overall, socialism is a failure...
    Overall, right-wingers have no consistent or coherent idea of what socilaism even is. But what many of them like to call socialism -- any sort of action or intervention by the state on behalf of citizens -- has been a smashing success adopted by the vast majority of the world's governments of every stripe. By the way, the people promoting lousy health care and reduced pensions in this country are all Republicans, not socialists.

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    Re: US Median Income Lowest Since 1995

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    actually you are underestimating some of those nations. Australia, Canda, Switzerland, all three of them are more free-market oriented than the United States.
    According to the propaganda of the Heritage Foundation/WSJ, whose listing boils down to countries that sort of do things the way we'd like to see things done, even though actually doing things that way has always led to disaster.

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    Re: US Median Income Lowest Since 1995

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I forget every once in a while you pull out a line that makes you sound like Debbie Wasserman Schultz
    THAT'S your response? All that fact to deal with, and all you can come up with is some out-of-the-blue attack on a breast cancer surviving Jewish-American Congresswoman? What a freaking piece of work!

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    Re: US Median Income Lowest Since 1995

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    That's great! We get lament after right-wing lament over the horrors of euro-socialism, and then it turns out that all these countries are actually beacons of free-market driven entrepreneurship. How many faces do you all have, anyway? It's plainly at least two.

    Here is a perhaps more enlightening measure of who is a socialist and who isn't. The data are from 2007, as everything that's been published since has been scrambled to bits by the effects of and reaction to the Great Bush Recession...

    In these countries, federal spending is at least 50% of GDP:
    France, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, Malta, Qatar, Kuwait, Belgium, Norway, Netherlands, Italy, Austria, Finland, Portugal, United Kingdom.

    In these countries, federal spending is 40-50% of GDP:
    Germany, Canada, Spain, New Zealand, Israel, Australia, Ireland, Saudi Arabia.

    In these countries, federal spending is 30-40% of GDP:
    Switzerland, Luxembourg, South Africa, Japan, United Arab Emirates

    In these countries, federal spending is 20-30% of GDP:
    India, Russia, China, Poland

    In this country, federal spending is less than 20% of GDP:
    United States of America
    I'm sorry, what? First off,

    France, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, Malta, Qatar, Kuwait, Belgium, Norway, Netherlands, Italy, Austria, Finland, Portugal, United Kingdom.
    With the exception of Austria... neither of these countries are federations. I can see how you may confuse UK with a federation, but it ins't.

    Secondly:
    Germany, Canada, Spain, New Zealand, Israel, Australia, Ireland, Saudi Arabia.

    Germany is indeed a federation, you nailed this one. Spain isn't. Spain is a constitutional Monarchy like the UK.

    Then:
    Switzerland, Luxembourg, South Africa, Japan, United Arab Emirates
    With the exception of Switzerland... none others are federations.

    So whatever argument you had... based on what... i don't know. I will just satisfy myself with bringing these notions to a clarification until you re-write your arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    Overall, right-wingers have no consistent or coherent idea of what socilaism even is. But what many of them like to call socialism -- any sort of action or intervention by the state on behalf of citizens -- has been a smashing success adopted by the vast majority of the world's governments of every stripe. By the way, the people promoting lousy health care and reduced pensions in this country are all Republicans, not socialists.
    I happen to live in Europe you know... the EU none the less. Trust me, I know what socialism is.

    It is as I said. Countries with a powerful capitalist mentality and a good capitalist system can afford proper socialist measures, like universal healthcare. Countries like former communist countries, cannot... because the capitalist mentality isn't there. There is no such engine. and there is no money to provide a lot of the socialist measures left behind by the commies and to which the population grew dependent on. So now you have populations dependent on a poor government, filled with corruption and incompetence... who have to pay a lot for all sort of socialist measures and therefore cannot afford to put money into the budget for improvement of the infrastructure, the schools and as such... it cripples itself. even if the political class would want to make things good in most eastern european countries, which frankly, they don't... but even if they did want to develop them, they wouldn't have the money to do it.

    Capitalism (not pure capitalism mind you, but the ideology) leads to success and prosperity. So much so that it can sustain socialism. Socialism in itself, is a failure economically and, ironically, socially. Why can't you see that socialism cannot exist outside of capitalism. It must leech on something to survive.

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    Re: US Median Income Lowest Since 1995

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    Whereas the "It's not all Bush's fault" people have been slow all along. Bush is already ranked as among the worst Presidents in US history, and as time passes, that rating will only worsen. Eight years of miserable disgrace and failure. An indefensible record of utter malfeasance that will haunt us for decades.
    Well, here's the deal. It takes two to tango in Washington, and the Democrats and Republicans are perfect dance partners, who together brought on this perfect storm. It began with the gutting of the Glass-Steagal Act, through the Gramm-Bliley Act, which was created by Republicans, overwhelmingly supported by both Republicans and Democrats, and signed into law by Bill Clinton.
    The ghost of Jack Kevorkian for President's Physician: 2016

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    Re: US Median Income Lowest Since 1995

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    I'm sorry, what? First off,
    No, first off...

    federation [ˌfɛdəˈreɪʃən]
    n
    1. the act of federating
    2. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) the union of several provinces, states, etc., to form a federal union
    3. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) a political unit formed in such a way
    4. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) any league, alliance, or confederacy
    5. a union of several parties, groups, etc.
    6. any association or union for common action


    So with pointless and poorly established semantics out of the way...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    I happen to live in Europe you know... the EU none the less.
    Which has implications for what, exactly? Do you expect that the data posted above will change now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    Trust me, I know what socialism is.
    Why would I trust understanding of the complex term "socialism" to someone who can't get past the word "federation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    It is as I said. Countries with a powerful capitalist mentality and a good capitalist system can afford proper socialist measures, like universal healthcare. Countries like former communist countries, cannot... because the capitalist mentality isn't there. There is no such engine. and there is no money to provide a lot of the socialist measures left behind by the commies and to which the population grew dependent on. So now you have populations dependent on a poor government, filled with corruption and incompetence... who have to pay a lot for all sort of socialist measures and therefore cannot afford to put money into the budget for improvement of the infrastructure, the schools and as such... it cripples itself. even if the political class would want to make things good in most eastern european countries, which frankly, they don't... but even if they did want to develop them, they wouldn't have the money to do it. Capitalism (not pure capitalism mind you, but the ideology) leads to success and prosperity. So much so that it can sustain socialism. Socialism in itself, is a failure economically and, ironically, socially. Why can't you see that socialism cannot exist outside of capitalism. It must leech on something to survive.
    LOL! That sure takes care of any doubts I had.

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    Re: US Median Income Lowest Since 1995

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    No, first off...

    federation [ˌfɛdəˈreɪʃən]
    n
    1. the act of federating
    2. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) the union of several provinces, states, etc., to form a federal union
    3. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) a political unit formed in such a way
    4. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) any league, alliance, or confederacy
    5. a union of several parties, groups, etc.
    6. any association or union for common action


    So with pointless and poorly established semantics out of the way...


    Which has implications for what, exactly? Do you expect that the data posted above will change now?


    Why would I trust understanding of the complex term "socialism" to someone who can't get past the word "federation"?


    LOL! That sure takes care of any doubts I had.

    Ok, which of the 6 definitions for the word federation did you wish to use? Because these 3, which are the ones we should use if we talk about politics and political matters:
    2. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) the union of several provinces, states, etc., to form a federal union
    3. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) a political unit formed in such a way
    4. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) any league, alliance, or confederacy

    make your statement seem wrong. Most european states are unitary states. They aren't federations, with the exceptions of those I pointed out.

    Second of all.... yes, you should trust me in terms of understanding socialism. it's not that bloody hard a concept and the vision it brings with it. I am not getting past the term federation because that is not the proper way to use the term in this context and I have expressed so just above.

    Thirdly. Your doubts are your own and it will take willpower and open-mindedness to get you past the doubts. Socialism is a leeching system. It is not very dissimilar to parasites, only in that it provides something in return to the host for all the leeching it takes. In this case, the host is a good capitalism... and the parasite is socialism.

    Do not get me wrong, I am not completely against socialism.. I just against most of socialism. I don't support complete capitalism either. None in the purest form is a humane way to govern a country... but the ratio needs to be less in the socialist part and more in the capitalist part. Why? because I cannot emphasize this enough... socialism cannot survive without a lot of MONEY. It is however a system that cannot produce said amount of MONEY and therefore must leech off other systems that do produce the money.

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    Re: US Median Income Lowest Since 1995

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Well, here's the deal. It takes two to tango in Washington...
    It used to. Then Republicans turned into the not nearly as funny equivalent of terrorists at the wheel of the DTX Deathmobile. Started when the renegade neocons threw all the paleos out of the party, then shacked up with Jerry Falwell. Went into high gear with Newt and the Arkansas Project. Went into overdrive in the post-Mark Foley era of sheer Republican outlandishness.

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    ...and the Democrats and Republicans are perfect dance partners, who together brought on this perfect storm.
    Not a perfect storm at all, but a simple trainwreck of greedy cowboy capitalism egged on by the unbelievably ignorant fiscal, monetary, and regulatory policy of a bunch of laissez-faire, free-market Republicans.

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    It began with the gutting of the Glass-Steagal Act, through the Gramm-Bliley Act, which was created by Republicans, overwhelmingly supported by both Republicans and Democrats, and signed into law by Bill Clinton.
    That would be Gramm-LEACH-Bliley, and it was opposed by Democrats until Clinton extracted the concessions he wanted in exchange for passing it and then gave it the green light. As for contributing to the later credit crisis and Great Bush Recession, that's a tough argument to make unless you are comfortable claiming that paving downtown streets makes bank robberies more likely by smoothing the path of potentail getaway vehicles. In fact, the once strict separation of commercial and investment banking had been gradually softened over the years, and by the time GLB passed, many banks were already involved in such practices and in such bookkeeping. A strict prohibition against banks owning insurance companies was still in place and removed by GLB, but few actual such moves resulted.

    The actual crisis meanwhile grew up between 2002 and 2006. All Republicans, all the time. Not a Democrat you could name had his hands on a lever of power during that time.

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    Re: US Median Income Lowest Since 1995

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    US median income lowest since 1995 - FT.com

    mere confirmation of our own experience, what americans are living

    what can we expect when so many more of our neighbors, friends and family members are filing for disability and food stamps than are actually gaining employment Republican obstructionist ftactics are endangering our homeland security by inciting the middle class towards anarchy and chaos.

    what's new when four times as many of our associates and relations drop out of the work force than find a job

    when 58% of the frighteningly few of our friends who do hook up end up pulling down between $10 and $12 per hour

    CNN: Low-wage jobs explosion - Aug. 31, 2012

    when real middle class incomes are down TWICE as fast AFTER the recession officially ended than they declined DURING the deepest, darkest days of depression

    Household income fell 4.8% during economic recovery - latimes.com

    food stamps at a record hi, poverty at a record hi

    if the workforce were the same size today, even disallowing for natural population growth, as it was on jan 20, 2009, bls' unemployment # would be 11.2

    we can never hit bottom til housing, which brung us here, finds its basement

    Time: How ‘Shadow Inventory’ Is Killing the U.S. Housing Market

    3 to 10 million homes haunt the shadow inventory

    who's lying to you, time, cnn or ft?

    maybe it's sigtarp you shouldn't believe

    Bloomberg: Obama Loan-Modification Effort 'Failed Miserably'
    Why do you sound like you are outraged? The Republican obstructionism against the United States' President is wporking out just as you had hoped for. The Republican obstructionists are destroying our country from within creating a class war against the weak, the sick, the poor, and the LIBERALS!
    Last edited by LiberalAvenger; 09-20-12 at 07:18 PM.

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