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Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate Benghazi leaves 4 dead, inc. U.S. Ambassador[W:939]

Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

NO relevance. Move along Grant.

Paul

What does this mean??

Grant, remember, you're the 'keyboard warrior' I have actually been their on more than one occasion.

Paul

You have been "their"? "There"?

Please try to make sense.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

But you see, that is not liberalism. Liberalism is about freedom and the value of the individual, and is not about religion, except in that we have the freedom to worship, or not, whatever we wish, or not. What we were seeing at the convention was a bunch of malcontents who are still rebelling against their parents, essentially. Listen, I am not religious in a traditional manner at all, but I understand why many people are, and it doesn't bother me in the least for people to express it, and even if I were atheistic, I would not demand that others avoid any mention of God in a gathering such as political conventions. To me, it just reeks of insecurity and juvenile defiance.

A good number of people who self-identify as liberals, have no real concept of what they are claiming to be. Americans have managed to turn what used to be a wonderful philosophy into just another flavor of authoritarianism. There are few actual liberals even left any more.

Excuse me. I know that the post-modern "liberal" is not the classic liberal. It also does not matter. Its what we got now.

Yes, it has been corrupted. Regardless, it is the liberal/Democrats who profess appeasement. Who are anti-the-Christain religion-of-others.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

you didn't see this in the media this past week? Are you serious

I mean that if you want me to talk to him, you're going to have to bring him here because I'm not going looking for him. Besides, I've got you claiming that rape is like driving drunk and crashing ones car.

The position is beyond stupid and disgustingly wrong.

There, consider him (and you) told.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

What are you talking about? They are pervasive and widely used.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/11/world/americas/11iht-hate.4.13645369.html?pagewanted=all
Europeans Outlaw Net Hate Speech
Free speech in Europe: mixed rules / The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com
Trial of Geert Wilders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...uoGoBg&usg=AFQjCNGK_ZWvftMM6E_DMn6Tvri50cJaJw

Etc, etc. Hate speech, holocaust denial laws, etc are broadly prohibited in Europe and have recently been used to crack down on politicians in Britain, France, the Netherlands, and Germany among others. Beyond hate speech, censorship laws for public broadcast, video games, film etc tend to be more institutional in Europe than in the US where things like the MPAA, EAA, etc are voluntary industry groups and hold no legal power.

There are a few points to make about each of these examples. I'll try to be brief.

Firstly, incitement to discrimination and/or violence based racial, sexual or religious hatred, is not free speech. I know US posters are familiar with the concept of shouting 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre. Most modern western nations are theatres crowded with all stripes of humanity, some more flammable than others.

The CS Monitor article seems to castigate Europe for being inconsistent on free speech laws, as if Europe (or even just the EU) had some kind of federal mechanism to harmonize legislation across the continent. That showed a bit of ignorance, I thought.

In some senses many European nations have more liberal approaches to free speech than the US. The US is far, far more censorious of artistic representations of sexuality and the human body, for example. European artists, film-makers and musicians are less likely to have their work censored for mass consumption than their US counterparts. Free speech encompasses all aspects of human expression, political, religious and artistic. Different nations balance out these different, and occasionally conflicting, forms of expression in their own way. It's not a competition.

Your last link appears to contradict your argument. Nick Griffin was protected by data protection laws that allowed him to continue his political career on the far right despite having been convicted of holocaust denial. He was prosecuted a second time and acquitted. It seems to me that for someone who incites hatred, discrimination and violence so incessantly, he had his free speech more than adequately protected by the British judicial system.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

If a gay guy dresses in pink and wings, and wears a cross, should he be prosecuted if a gang of phobe-thugs attack him? After all, he WAS provocative of those mindless scumbags. So we should probably charge him with some kind of a crime, right?

you missed my point AGAIN!

If the gay guy was doing that then I feel he was stupid not to think anything would happen and thus he is partially to blame, snap!

However I do not think its right that he was attacked but then again there are a lot of things in this world that are not right.

I would have to accept some personal responsibility if I walked down a dark street in a gang infested hood where I knew it was dangerous and if I was assaulted. I think the biggest issue today is that most people do not want to take personal responsibility for their own actions.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

I understand your position, and I vehemently disagree. Holding people responsible for provocative action is BS in my book. Just like a woman cannot be blamed for a rape because she dresses sexy.

Actually, your position would be "she's not responsible for the rape, but she IS responsible for being provocative". Should she get a few lashings for "her part" in the event?

The rape analogy is not relevant and is clichéd and glib beyond words.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Hmm, you'll need to do a little better than one example of one rarely-used law from one European country.

Wasn't it you who said European freedoms of speech were "tempered"?

Please excuse me if I'm wrong.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

The rape analogy is not relevant and is clichéd and glib beyond words.

I gave you another, try that one.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

If a gay guy dresses in pink and wings, and wears a cross, should he be prosecuted if a gang of phobe-thugs attack him? After all, he WAS provocative of those mindless scumbags. So we should probably charge him with some kind of a crime, right?

Also glib and irrelevant. You need a new anaology or, better still, debate the issue at hand, the responsibility that accompanies the right to free speech. Do you believe that any such responsibility exists?
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

I believe this to be true. The film-maker is not responsible for the actions of others. He is responsible for his own provocative and prejudiced actions however.

We are all responsible for our own actions in any lawful society, but not for the actions of others.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

If the gay guy was doing that then I feel he was stupid not to think anything would happen and thus he is partially to blame, snap!

"Snap!", really? How old are you. I think one of the biggest problems today is your attitude that rape and murder is the fault of the victim.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

The rape analogy is not relevant and is clichéd and glib beyond words.

Its an extremely stupid analogy.. A better one would be the result you might get poking a rattlesnake.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Also glib and irrelevant. You need a new anaology or, better still, debate the issue at hand, the responsibility that accompanies the right to free speech. Do you believe that any such responsibility exists?

No, I do not. People are responsible for their own actions. Neither dressing sexy nor gay is a criminal offence in the event of an attack.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

tell that to the judge that recently told a woman she was partially to blame for being out at that place at such a late hour.

I mean if a woman dresses like a whore and is walking the streets doesn't mean she isn't responsible for bringing such actions ? please it's called being responsible and having situational awareness

now I am not saying she deserves it or its acceptable but at the same time I don't feel sorry for her. I mean do you feel sorry for a drunk driver who brings on his own actions by drinking and then driving?

It's good to see Muslims becoming involved in the debate.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Its an extremely stupid analogy.. A better one would be the result you might get poking a rattlesnake.

If we’re taking the rattlesnake to have human intelligence and by “poking” we mean exercising your rights in some manner through which the intelligent rattlesnake will eventually view said exercise. Then yes, that would be a proper analogy.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

No, I do not. People are responsible for their own actions.
This makes no sense. You answer my question, "Do you believe free speech comes with responsibilities?" saying, "No, I do not, and then say "People are responsible for their actions". Exercising free speech is an action, is it not?

Neither dressing sexy nor gay is a criminal offence in the event of an attack.
Selecting an outfit to wear is not a comparable action with setting out to propagandize against a race, religion or community. That's why I reject your analogy.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

We are all responsible for our own actions in any lawful society, but not for the actions of others.

Very true. Hypothetically, 'If we knowingly place a murderous racist thug in a cell with a defenseless Black inmate and the racist thug murders the Black cell mate. Are we culpable for placing him in that situation?
,
Paul
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

This makes no sense. You answer my question, "Do you believe free speech comes with responsibilities?" saying, "No, I do not, and then say "People are responsible for their actions". Exercising free speech is an action, is it not?

No, I meant actual physical actions, not speech (merely words).

Selecting an outfit to wear is not a comparable action with setting out to propagandize against a race, religion or community. That's why I reject your analogy.

Being provocative and being prejudice are differnt things. I don't believe that either should be illegal (best to keep the rats in the light). I've been adressing your contention that people should be held legally liable for the provocation of murderous violence (not the prejudice part).
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

There are a few points to make about each of these examples. I'll try to be brief.

Firstly, incitement to discrimination and/or violence based racial, sexual or religious hatred, is not free speech. I know US posters are familiar with the concept of shouting 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre. Most modern western nations are theatres crowded with all stripes of humanity, some more flammable than others.

The CS Monitor article seems to castigate Europe for being inconsistent on free speech laws, as if Europe (or even just the EU) had some kind of federal mechanism to harmonize legislation across the continent. That showed a bit of ignorance, I thought.

In some senses many European nations have more liberal approaches to free speech than the US. The US is far, far more censorious of artistic representations of sexuality and the human body, for example. European artists, film-makers and musicians are less likely to have their work censored for mass consumption than their US counterparts. Free speech encompasses all aspects of human expression, political, religious and artistic. Different nations balance out these different, and occasionally conflicting, forms of expression in their own way. It's not a competition.

Your last link appears to contradict your argument. Nick Griffin was protected by data protection laws that allowed him to continue his political career on the far right despite having been convicted of holocaust denial. He was prosecuted a second time and acquitted. It seems to me that for someone who incites hatred, discrimination and violence so incessantly, he had his free speech more than adequately protected by the British judicial system.

It seems Europeans have had problems with people shouting "Fire" in crowded theaters given the extent to which this tired excuse against free speech is often cited.

And of course "incitement to discrimination and/or violence based racial, sexual or religious hatred" laws can be interpreted any number of ways and will, inevitably, be abused by those who desire greater power.

Your example of someone being convicted of holocaust denial is as good an example as any the limits of free speech in Europe.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

But you see, that is not liberalism. Liberalism is about freedom and the value of the individual, and is not about religion, except in that we have the freedom to worship, or not, whatever we wish, or not. What we were seeing at the convention was a bunch of malcontents who are still rebelling against their parents, essentially. Listen, I am not religious in a traditional manner at all, but I understand why many people are, and it doesn't bother me in the least for people to express it, and even if I were atheistic, I would not demand that others avoid any mention of God in a gathering such as political conventions. To me, it just reeks of insecurity and juvenile defiance.

A good number of people who self-identify as liberals, have no real concept of what they are claiming to be. Americans have managed to turn what used to be a wonderful philosophy into just another flavor of authoritarianism. There are few actual liberals even left any more.

Actually...classical liberalism if you're talking about enlightenment ideals was very distrustful of organized religion and the use of religion.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Its an extremely stupid analogy.. A better one would be the result you might get poking a rattlesnake.

Your analogy between Muslims and the animal world is noted.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

I mean that if you want me to talk to him, you're going to have to bring him here because I'm not going looking for him. Besides, I've got you claiming that rape is like driving drunk and crashing ones car.

The position is beyond stupid and disgustingly wrong.

There, consider him (and you) told.

no what you have is a poor reading comprehension and the fact you cannot understand my argument as how I do not feel sympathy for a drunk driver who put themselves in such a situation as I do not have any sympathy for a person that puts themselves out on the street in a bad area at night in provocative clothing and then gets raped by the thugs that hang there. I call it personal responsibility but never did I say that rape and drunk driving where the same thing, you are again trying to side tract the argument with petty attempts at slanderous attacks in a the hope it will help your lame arguments.
 
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