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Thread: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate Benghazi leaves 4 dead, inc. U.S. Ambassador[W:939]

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    Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Also glib and irrelevant. You need a new anaology or, better still, debate the issue at hand, the responsibility that accompanies the right to free speech. Do you believe that any such responsibility exists?
    No, I do not. People are responsible for their own actions. Neither dressing sexy nor gay is a criminal offence in the event of an attack.

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    Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignElecto View Post
    tell that to the judge that recently told a woman she was partially to blame for being out at that place at such a late hour.

    I mean if a woman dresses like a whore and is walking the streets doesn't mean she isn't responsible for bringing such actions ? please it's called being responsible and having situational awareness

    now I am not saying she deserves it or its acceptable but at the same time I don't feel sorry for her. I mean do you feel sorry for a drunk driver who brings on his own actions by drinking and then driving?
    It's good to see Muslims becoming involved in the debate.

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    Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

    Quote Originally Posted by sharon View Post
    Its an extremely stupid analogy.. A better one would be the result you might get poking a rattlesnake.
    If we’re taking the rattlesnake to have human intelligence and by “poking” we mean exercising your rights in some manner through which the intelligent rattlesnake will eventually view said exercise. Then yes, that would be a proper analogy.
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    Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    No, I do not. People are responsible for their own actions.
    This makes no sense. You answer my question, "Do you believe free speech comes with responsibilities?" saying, "No, I do not, and then say "People are responsible for their actions". Exercising free speech is an action, is it not?

    Neither dressing sexy nor gay is a criminal offence in the event of an attack.
    Selecting an outfit to wear is not a comparable action with setting out to propagandize against a race, religion or community. That's why I reject your analogy.
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    Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    We are all responsible for our own actions in any lawful society, but not for the actions of others.
    Very true. Hypothetically, 'If we knowingly place a murderous racist thug in a cell with a defenseless Black inmate and the racist thug murders the Black cell mate. Are we culpable for placing him in that situation?
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    Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    This makes no sense. You answer my question, "Do you believe free speech comes with responsibilities?" saying, "No, I do not, and then say "People are responsible for their actions". Exercising free speech is an action, is it not?
    No, I meant actual physical actions, not speech (merely words).

    Selecting an outfit to wear is not a comparable action with setting out to propagandize against a race, religion or community. That's why I reject your analogy.
    Being provocative and being prejudice are differnt things. I don't believe that either should be illegal (best to keep the rats in the light). I've been adressing your contention that people should be held legally liable for the provocation of murderous violence (not the prejudice part).

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    Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    There are a few points to make about each of these examples. I'll try to be brief.

    Firstly, incitement to discrimination and/or violence based racial, sexual or religious hatred, is not free speech. I know US posters are familiar with the concept of shouting 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre. Most modern western nations are theatres crowded with all stripes of humanity, some more flammable than others.

    The CS Monitor article seems to castigate Europe for being inconsistent on free speech laws, as if Europe (or even just the EU) had some kind of federal mechanism to harmonize legislation across the continent. That showed a bit of ignorance, I thought.

    In some senses many European nations have more liberal approaches to free speech than the US. The US is far, far more censorious of artistic representations of sexuality and the human body, for example. European artists, film-makers and musicians are less likely to have their work censored for mass consumption than their US counterparts. Free speech encompasses all aspects of human expression, political, religious and artistic. Different nations balance out these different, and occasionally conflicting, forms of expression in their own way. It's not a competition.

    Your last link appears to contradict your argument. Nick Griffin was protected by data protection laws that allowed him to continue his political career on the far right despite having been convicted of holocaust denial. He was prosecuted a second time and acquitted. It seems to me that for someone who incites hatred, discrimination and violence so incessantly, he had his free speech more than adequately protected by the British judicial system.
    It seems Europeans have had problems with people shouting "Fire" in crowded theaters given the extent to which this tired excuse against free speech is often cited.

    And of course "incitement to discrimination and/or violence based racial, sexual or religious hatred" laws can be interpreted any number of ways and will, inevitably, be abused by those who desire greater power.

    Your example of someone being convicted of holocaust denial is as good an example as any the limits of free speech in Europe.

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    Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    But you see, that is not liberalism. Liberalism is about freedom and the value of the individual, and is not about religion, except in that we have the freedom to worship, or not, whatever we wish, or not. What we were seeing at the convention was a bunch of malcontents who are still rebelling against their parents, essentially. Listen, I am not religious in a traditional manner at all, but I understand why many people are, and it doesn't bother me in the least for people to express it, and even if I were atheistic, I would not demand that others avoid any mention of God in a gathering such as political conventions. To me, it just reeks of insecurity and juvenile defiance.

    A good number of people who self-identify as liberals, have no real concept of what they are claiming to be. Americans have managed to turn what used to be a wonderful philosophy into just another flavor of authoritarianism. There are few actual liberals even left any more.
    Actually...classical liberalism if you're talking about enlightenment ideals was very distrustful of organized religion and the use of religion.
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    Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

    Quote Originally Posted by sharon View Post
    Its an extremely stupid analogy.. A better one would be the result you might get poking a rattlesnake.
    Your analogy between Muslims and the animal world is noted.

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    Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I mean that if you want me to talk to him, you're going to have to bring him here because I'm not going looking for him. Besides, I've got you claiming that rape is like driving drunk and crashing ones car.

    The position is beyond stupid and disgustingly wrong.

    There, consider him (and you) told.
    no what you have is a poor reading comprehension and the fact you cannot understand my argument as how I do not feel sympathy for a drunk driver who put themselves in such a situation as I do not have any sympathy for a person that puts themselves out on the street in a bad area at night in provocative clothing and then gets raped by the thugs that hang there. I call it personal responsibility but never did I say that rape and drunk driving where the same thing, you are again trying to side tract the argument with petty attempts at slanderous attacks in a the hope it will help your lame arguments.

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