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Thread: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate Benghazi leaves 4 dead, inc. U.S. Ambassador[W:939]

  1. #581
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    Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignElecto View Post
    you didn't see this in the media this past week? Are you serious
    I mean that if you want me to talk to him, you're going to have to bring him here because I'm not going looking for him. Besides, I've got you claiming that rape is like driving drunk and crashing ones car.

    The position is beyond stupid and disgustingly wrong.

    There, consider him (and you) told.

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    Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    What are you talking about? They are pervasive and widely used.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/11/wo...pagewanted=all
    Europeans Outlaw Net Hate Speech
    Free speech in Europe: mixed rules / The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com
    Trial of Geert Wilders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...Mn6Tvri50cJaJw

    Etc, etc. Hate speech, holocaust denial laws, etc are broadly prohibited in Europe and have recently been used to crack down on politicians in Britain, France, the Netherlands, and Germany among others. Beyond hate speech, censorship laws for public broadcast, video games, film etc tend to be more institutional in Europe than in the US where things like the MPAA, EAA, etc are voluntary industry groups and hold no legal power.
    There are a few points to make about each of these examples. I'll try to be brief.

    Firstly, incitement to discrimination and/or violence based racial, sexual or religious hatred, is not free speech. I know US posters are familiar with the concept of shouting 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre. Most modern western nations are theatres crowded with all stripes of humanity, some more flammable than others.

    The CS Monitor article seems to castigate Europe for being inconsistent on free speech laws, as if Europe (or even just the EU) had some kind of federal mechanism to harmonize legislation across the continent. That showed a bit of ignorance, I thought.

    In some senses many European nations have more liberal approaches to free speech than the US. The US is far, far more censorious of artistic representations of sexuality and the human body, for example. European artists, film-makers and musicians are less likely to have their work censored for mass consumption than their US counterparts. Free speech encompasses all aspects of human expression, political, religious and artistic. Different nations balance out these different, and occasionally conflicting, forms of expression in their own way. It's not a competition.

    Your last link appears to contradict your argument. Nick Griffin was protected by data protection laws that allowed him to continue his political career on the far right despite having been convicted of holocaust denial. He was prosecuted a second time and acquitted. It seems to me that for someone who incites hatred, discrimination and violence so incessantly, he had his free speech more than adequately protected by the British judicial system.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

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    Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    If a gay guy dresses in pink and wings, and wears a cross, should he be prosecuted if a gang of phobe-thugs attack him? After all, he WAS provocative of those mindless scumbags. So we should probably charge him with some kind of a crime, right?
    you missed my point AGAIN!

    If the gay guy was doing that then I feel he was stupid not to think anything would happen and thus he is partially to blame, snap!

    However I do not think its right that he was attacked but then again there are a lot of things in this world that are not right.

    I would have to accept some personal responsibility if I walked down a dark street in a gang infested hood where I knew it was dangerous and if I was assaulted. I think the biggest issue today is that most people do not want to take personal responsibility for their own actions.

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    Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I understand your position, and I vehemently disagree. Holding people responsible for provocative action is BS in my book. Just like a woman cannot be blamed for a rape because she dresses sexy.

    Actually, your position would be "she's not responsible for the rape, but she IS responsible for being provocative". Should she get a few lashings for "her part" in the event?
    The rape analogy is not relevant and is clichéd and glib beyond words.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

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    Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Hmm, you'll need to do a little better than one example of one rarely-used law from one European country.
    Wasn't it you who said European freedoms of speech were "tempered"?

    Please excuse me if I'm wrong.

  6. #586
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    Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    The rape analogy is not relevant and is clichéd and glib beyond words.
    I gave you another, try that one.

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    Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    If a gay guy dresses in pink and wings, and wears a cross, should he be prosecuted if a gang of phobe-thugs attack him? After all, he WAS provocative of those mindless scumbags. So we should probably charge him with some kind of a crime, right?
    Also glib and irrelevant. You need a new anaology or, better still, debate the issue at hand, the responsibility that accompanies the right to free speech. Do you believe that any such responsibility exists?
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

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    Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I believe this to be true. The film-maker is not responsible for the actions of others. He is responsible for his own provocative and prejudiced actions however.
    We are all responsible for our own actions in any lawful society, but not for the actions of others.

  9. #589
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    Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignElecto View Post
    If the gay guy was doing that then I feel he was stupid not to think anything would happen and thus he is partially to blame, snap!
    "Snap!", really? How old are you. I think one of the biggest problems today is your attitude that rape and murder is the fault of the victim.

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    Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    The rape analogy is not relevant and is clichéd and glib beyond words.
    Its an extremely stupid analogy.. A better one would be the result you might get poking a rattlesnake.

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