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Thread: GM Losing Up To $49,000 Per Volt

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    Re: GM Losing Up To $49,000 Per Volt

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Batteries don't charge themelves. A "hydrogen fuel cell" does not create energy from thin air. The emissions might not be at the tail-pipe, but they exist. If ones house runs on coal, then one is driving on coal and a very expensive battery (both economically and ecologically). I think fuel efficiency, through standard hybrid technology, is the way to go.
    I'm not sure where the hydrogen fuel cell comes in, because the Volt doesn't use one. And though it's true if the house gets electricity from coal so does the Volt, but I don't see a lot of folks complaining about houses getting electricity from coal, so why the complaint about the car getting electricity from coal? And the cool thing about electrics is, if the local power company suddenly directs your electricity from a new solar plant, your Volt is suddenly squeaky clean without a single change to the car. It could happen one night and you wouldn't even know it.
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    Re: GM Losing Up To $49,000 Per Volt

    Quote Originally Posted by avusbluem5 View Post
    So, maybe GM should stop making the Cruz, and focus only on the Volt? Since the Volt is by a large margin, a more profitable car to build.
    It would only be a more profitable car if they were selling enough of them to make more money - which they are not.

    That also excludes costs of development though.

    Defenders of the Volt have a point in saying the cost of development needs to be spread throughout the lifetime of the car but the sales numbers are just too anemic to believe the lifetime will be too much longer or it will ever actually turn a profit. GM will be halting production of the Volt for, I believe, the third time to compensate for the low sales. Development costs are a sunk cost and at some point GM will have to accept they will never recoup their investment and move on to a line they can profit from.

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    Re: GM Losing Up To $49,000 Per Volt

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Batteries don't charge themelves. A "hydrogen fuel cell" does not create energy from thin air. The emissions might not be at the tail-pipe, but they exist. If ones house runs on coal, then one is driving on coal and a very expensive battery (both economically and ecologically). I think fuel efficiency, through standard hybrid technology, is the way to go.
    Not all houses get their energy from coal.

    We have Nuclear, Hydro, wind and geothermal which are zero CO2 emission sources of electricity.

    Coal power in the United States accounted for 42% of the country's electricity production in 2011. Other carbon based sources brings that up to 68%. So if everyone converted to Hydrogen fuel cell transportation, we'd see a ~32% reduction in co2 emissions.

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    Re: GM Losing Up To $49,000 Per Volt

    Quote Originally Posted by Donahue View Post
    It would only be a more profitable car if they were selling enough of them to make more money - which they are not.

    That also excludes costs of development though.

    Defenders of the Volt have a point in saying the cost of development needs to be spread throughout the lifetime of the car but the sales numbers are just too anemic to believe the lifetime will be too much longer or it will ever actually turn a profit. GM will be halting production of the Volt for, I believe, the third time to compensate for the low sales. Development costs are a sunk cost and at some point GM will have to accept they will never recoup their investment and move on to a line they can profit from.
    From what I'm seeing, sales of the Volt are increasing by leaps and bounds.
    GM spokesman Jim Cain said the company expects the Volt's August sales to top 2,500, the best month by far since its December 2010 launch. That would mark a 35% increase over July sales and more than a 700% jump from year ago results.
    Volt monthly sales to hit record in August - Aug. 30, 2012

    The Volt is dominating the European market as the Ampera..

    In the Netherlands, the Ampera has taken more than 77% of the passenger EV market share in May. The average year-to-date market share for the Ampera in the Netherlands was more than 50%. Based on the latest available figures, the Ampera is also the best-selling EV in Germany with a share of more than a third and Switzerland with 44%.
    Green Car Congress: Opel says Ampera was Europe

    Steadily increasing sales can hardly be described as "anemic."
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    Re: GM Losing Up To $49,000 Per Volt

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    Guess it is all in how creative you get with your math and that article got quite creative:


    Reuters: GM Is Still Losing As Much As $49,000 On Each Volt It Builds
    Quote Originally Posted by Donahue View Post
    It would only be a more profitable car if they were selling enough of them to make more money - which they are not.

    That also excludes costs of development though.

    Defenders of the Volt have a point in saying the cost of development needs to be spread throughout the lifetime of the car but the sales numbers are just too anemic to believe the lifetime will be too much longer or it will ever actually turn a profit. GM will be halting production of the Volt for, I believe, the third time to compensate for the low sales. Development costs are a sunk cost and at some point GM will have to accept they will never recoup their investment and move on to a line they can profit from.

    "they will never recoup their investment and move on to a line they can profit from."

    The volt is Profitable with a 19% margin, perhaps as high as 40+%. The R&D cost to develop the Volt's technology will benefit more and more product lines over time. It is not solely up to the Volt to recoup that initial R&D investment, which is treated as an Overhead cost, that is Amortized below the EBITDA line on the financials. Example: GM has a 114 horsepower Chevy Spark electric car planned for a 2013 release. GM has also sold almost 5,000 Opel Amperas and Holden Volts in Europe, Australia and New Zealand, further reducing the R&D/unit sunk cost. Reuters ignored both of these in their hit piece.

    You say, "Development costs are a sunk cost and at some point GM will have to accept they will never recoup their investment and move on to a line they can profit from."

    This would be the worst thing GM could do, stop production of a profitable car with good margins because it's going to take a long time to recoup the money THEY ALREADY SPENT.


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    Re: GM Losing Up To $49,000 Per Volt

    Quote Originally Posted by EagleAye View Post
    From what I'm seeing, sales of the Volt are increasing by leaps and bounds.

    Volt monthly sales to hit record in August - Aug. 30, 2012

    The Volt is dominating the European market as the Ampera..


    Green Car Congress: Opel says Ampera was Europe

    Steadily increasing sales can hardly be described as "anemic."
    That's just kind of wishful thinking on your part.

    This discussion is less about cars then it is about politics and you're not really looking at the context of those claims. Sales have been so anemic that increases "by leaps and bounds" holds little real meaning. Any company would love to increase sales by 700% in a year but it's not quite that impressive going from 350 Volts sold to 2,500 in a record month when the cars it competes against sell more than ten times that in an average month.

    40,000 Camrys were sold in May. At that pace Toyota would have sold more Camrys every two days then GM did Volts throughout the entire month in their best month ever.

    This is political for Volt defenders on this board but it's business for GM. At some point they are just going to have to discontinue production of the Volt and move on to something more profitable.

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    Re: GM Losing Up To $49,000 Per Volt

    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    first 40 miles on electricity which basically means that you don't ever use gas unless you do a road-trip. That's not economical? lol... whatever man.
    Huck huck. The best estimates put the payback of a Volt vs Cruze at 15 years.

    http://www.edmunds.com/industry-cent...-ev-sales.html

    And that is using $3 gas and the EPA estimate, which has shown to be so accurate in the past...

    Huck huck. So no, its not economical.
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    Re: GM Losing Up To $49,000 Per Volt

    Quote Originally Posted by avusbluem5 View Post
    "they will never recoup their investment and move on to a line they can profit from."

    The volt is Profitable with a 19% margin, perhaps as high as 40+%. The R&D cost to develop the Volt's technology will benefit more and more product lines over time. It is not solely up to the Volt to recoup that initial R&D investment, which is treated as an Overhead cost, that is Amortized below the EBITDA line on the financials. Example: GM has a 114 horsepower Chevy Spark electric car planned for a 2013 release. GM has also sold almost 5,000 Opel Amperas and Holden Volts in Europe, Australia and New Zealand, further reducing the R&D/unit sunk cost. Reuters ignored both of these in their hit piece.

    You say, "Development costs are a sunk cost and at some point GM will have to accept they will never recoup their investment and move on to a line they can profit from."

    This would be the worst thing GM could do, stop production of a profitable car with good margins because it's going to take a long time to recoup the money THEY ALREADY SPENT.

    You can post as many images as you like but you're still the one who has no idea what you are talking about.

    A profit is only realized when the car is sold. They're not selling Volts in any real meaningful capacity.

    5,000 Volts sold abroad in a year might sound like a real lot to you but it isn't. Toyota sold 40,000 Camrys in May alone.

    This is political to you. I get that. It's business to GM.

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    Re: GM Losing Up To $49,000 Per Volt

    Quote Originally Posted by avusbluem5 View Post
    "they will never recoup their investment and move on to a line they can profit from."

    The volt is Profitable with a 19% margin, perhaps as high as 40+%. The R&D cost to develop the Volt's technology will benefit more and more product lines over time. It is not solely up to the Volt to recoup that initial R&D investment, which is treated as an Overhead cost, that is Amortized below the EBITDA line on the financials. Example: GM has a 114 horsepower Chevy Spark electric car planned for a 2013 release. GM has also sold almost 5,000 Opel Amperas and Holden Volts in Europe, Australia and New Zealand, further reducing the R&D/unit sunk cost. Reuters ignored both of these in their hit piece.

    You say, "Development costs are a sunk cost and at some point GM will have to accept they will never recoup their investment and move on to a line they can profit from."

    This would be the worst thing GM could do, stop production of a profitable car with good margins because it's going to take a long time to recoup the money THEY ALREADY SPENT.

    [img]http:/g]
    Maybe i missed where there was some proof of the volts profitability. Could you post it again?

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    Re: GM Losing Up To $49,000 Per Volt

    Quote Originally Posted by Donahue View Post
    That's just kind of wishful thinking on your part.

    This discussion is less about cars then it is about politics and you're not really looking at the context of those claims. Sales have been so anemic that increases "by leaps and bounds" holds little real meaning. Any company would love to increase sales by 700% in a year but it's not quite that impressive going from 350 Volts sold to 2,500 in a record month when the cars it competes against sell more than ten times that in an average month.

    40,000 Camrys were sold in May. At that pace Toyota would have sold more Camrys every two days then GM did Volts throughout the entire month in their best month ever.

    This is political for Volt defenders on this board but it's business for GM. At some point they are just going to have to discontinue production of the Volt and move on to something more profitable.
    Well, it's clear Volt attackers easily see this as political with all the references to "Obamacar." The opposition to the car is more about opposition to Obama than anything else.

    If the number of car sales is so critical, then would you say Lamborghini is an unsuccessful, unprofitable company?

    Its global deliveries increased by 300 units from 1,302 in 2010 up to 1,602 last year, an increase of 23 percent.
    Lamborghini Sales Increase 23 Percent In 2011
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