• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

First of all, I fail to see how graduation rates refute the basic premise of my post. Maybe they refute what you decided my basic premise was on your own.

My own research showed New York at 60% (from WSJ). Same with Philly at 60%. I can post links if you want. As far as Houston goes, I googled "how does houston calculate graduation rates" and the first page listed was this:

"A few years ago, the Houston School District was lauded as having very high graduation rates. But the so-called
“Houston Miracle” became famously mired in controversy after a state audit discovered that at some schools, more
than half the students classified as “discharged” should have been classified as dropouts.
How graduation rates were calculated for the class of 2004
Texas’s practices in defining the graduation rate are partly to blame for what expert Dan Losen of the Civil Rights
Project at Harvard University has called the “miracle of misrepresentation.” The state continues to boast an
84.6% graduation rate for the class of 2004, while independent estimates put the rate between 65 and 70%.
• Texas records 20 different graduation types, all counted as receiving regular diplomas.
• From the ninth-grade cohort, Texas subtracts students in 29 “leaver” categories, including separate categories
for students who are enrolled in GED programs, incarcerated, and participating in court-ordered alternative
programs; students who transfer or intend to transfer (without confirmation); unknown and unlisted leavers;
and students who leave under administrative withdrawal. None of these students are considered dropouts;
they are just not counted. For the purpose of calculating high school graduation rates, these students have
simply ceased to exist.
Step 1. Identify the cohort for the class of 2004: 348,039 entering ninth-grade students.
Step 2. Adjust the cohort: 348,039 students minus 60,527 leavers plus 16,601 students with data errors
equals the adjusted cohort for the class of 2004: 270,911 students (the denominator).
Step 3. Identify the graduates for the class of 2004: 270,911 minus 10,507 dropouts plus 19,826 students
staying in school plus 11,445 GED recipients equals total graduates for the class of 2004: 229,133
students (the numerator).
Step 4. Divide graduates by the adjusted cohort: 84.6% graduation rate."

So Houston calculates graduation rates differently and to their own advantage it seems.

Like I readily admitted, I didn't read your entire post. I may have jumped to conclusions based off of the first few lines. If I did, I apologize.
As far as the data, we can source and counter source all day. I am simply posting what I found. It's not like I cited some sort of off the wall blog for a source. My sources were state websites and ABC news, both credible IMO. Grad rates are just like unemployment numbers and the national debt. We can finagle it however we want and make it say what we want. My point is, according to stats reported by the states themselves, NY and Houston have a higher grad rate than Chicago.
 
What else is the purpose of going to school other than to graduate? We have to have measurables. Standardized testing, literacy rates, etc are good measurables to use. Graduation rate, IMO, is the best measurable to use. Its the entire focus and goal of going to school to begin with. It is statistically proven that not graduating high school leads to poverty, crime, etc. If you think I'm advocating for lax standards to make rates higher, you are mistaken. That's not my point at all. My point is that these teachers can't claim they are teaching in a tougher area than New York or Houston. Teachers in those states face the same hurdles and challenges. I'd say the teachers in Houston have it harder because they have a language barrier to deal with as well due to a larger Hispanic population. But somehow, someway, they make it happen. That Chicago teachers are asking for higher percentage pay raises than virtually anyone in the country (including Federal employees), to drop evaluation standards, and then mask it to look like they're doing it for the kids is despicable. If you don't believe grad rate is a good measurable, what is?

I happened some years back to watch on Frontline on PBS. I believe it was on, that even teachers well trained can have terrible classes.

She was black as the ace of spades and so was her class. I give the teacher enormous credit for trying to teach those kids given she had to have daily fights with the parents who claimed she tried to teach the kids, ... get this, the way white kids would get taught. I was sad when the program stated that this very caring teacher got released due to not making mandated standards. Well, those parents made it clear they did not like her. One of her students begged her to downplay his grades so the other kids did not know he got decent grades. Well, his good grades still had him doing bad in college. See, his level of education simply was not up to uncle tom standards and he had serious problems keeping up with college. Darned nice kid too.
 
Then you don't support teachers.

He just said that he did. And there really is a diff between supporting teachers and supporting teachers' unions.

I also support teachers wholeheartedly. Not unions and not the AAUP.
 
I'll take that opinion just as seriously as I've taken your expertise, which comes from having coffee with a couple of your profs.

As a primer, if you Google "culture of measurement and assessment," which you apparently are unfamiliar with, these are the first two hits, and the first has been cited over 1100 times:

http://math.arizona.edu/~cemela/english/content/shortcourses/assessment/Day 2 Reading 2.pdf

http://library.mpib-berlin.mpg.de/toc/z2007_216.pdf

If you don't realize that kids left unsupervised in Chicago are in danger, then maybe you're unfamiliar with that city. That's not hyperbole.

Insults notwithstanding. You're talking about social assessments. These kids are going to be no more unsupervised than they were during their summer vacation . . . So, you're just being hyperbolic.
 
So schools teachers are not just employed to teach, but to also write, provide research and opinion on potentially controversial subjects?
Sorry, but your opinion just doesn't line up with reality.

Academia is not only a profession, but a field of study. You're really just blank on tis subject: sorry, but you're wasting my time.
 
Academia is not only a profession, but a field of study. You're really just blank on tis subject: sorry, but you're wasting my time.

Actually, he was noting an important distinction between secondary-ed teachers and professors. That you failed to understand this further suggests that you don't really know very much about this general subject.
 
I happened some years back to watch on Frontline on PBS. I believe it was on, that even teachers well trained can have terrible classes.

She was black as the ace of spades and so was her class. I give the teacher enormous credit for trying to teach those kids given she had to have daily fights with the parents who claimed she tried to teach the kids, ... get this, the way white kids would get taught. I was sad when the program stated that this very caring teacher got released due to not making mandated standards. Well, those parents made it clear they did not like her. One of her students begged her to downplay his grades so the other kids did not know he got decent grades. Well, his good grades still had him doing bad in college. See, his level of education simply was not up to uncle tom standards and he had serious problems keeping up with college. Darned nice kid too.

I'm waiting on your point......
 
Academia is not only a profession, but a field of study. You're really just blank on tis subject: sorry, but you're wasting my time.

And it's not a "field of study." "Academia" refers to "Members of the Academy."
 
Insults notwithstanding. You're talking about social assessments. These kids are going to be no more unsupervised than they were during their summer vacation . . . So, you're just being hyperbolic.

I am not talking about "social" assessments, whatever they are (Good hygiene? Ability to play well with others?). I am talking about measurement and assessment in education--measurable "outcomes" and etc.

Don't know what part of the country you're from, but if you Google, you can locate the accrediting agency for your state and/or region. When you do, you will see for yourself what I'm talking about.

And BTW, at some point you just might want to wonder if just maybe I might know what I'm talking about and why. ;)
 
Your source also says the average wage of doctors in Chicago is 63K.
Doctor Salaries in Chicago, IL | Simply Hired

And the average salary in walmart is 56K
Walmart Salaries in Chicago, IL | Simply Hired

Your source sucks monkeyballs. Sources I have read show that teachers in Chicago earns 71K on average.

Here's the pay schedule for managament: http://www.cps.edu/About_CPS/At-a-glance/Documents/CompensationReport.pdf

And here's another on teachers: $47,000 Salary & Benefits

And, here's another: Chicago Public School Salary Schedule | eHow.com

So far, it's you who is batting 0.
 
He just said that he did. And there really is a diff between supporting teachers and supporting teachers' unions.

I also support teachers wholeheartedly. Not unions and not the AAUP.

You can't say you support teachers and then not support the majority becausee they belong to a union. That's disingenuous at best.
 
And here's another on teachers: $47,000 Salary & Benefits

So far, it's you who is batting 0.

From this link:

" For the 2011-2012 school year, first-year teachers earned $47,250 annually"

and:

The salary range for first year teachers in Chicago Public Schools was $47,000-$50,000 in the 2011-2012 school year.

Is it your assertion that CPS teachers do not get raises or that the VAST majority of them are 'first year' thus preventing a substanative increase in the 'average salary'? OR is this just ANOTHER example of your failure to furnish a reliable link?
 
There's no flippin' way a Chicago teacher on average makes the exact same as teachers in my district (about $47,000). No way.
 
Here's the pay schedule for managament: http://www.cps.edu/About_CPS/At-a-glance/Documents/CompensationReport.pdf

And here's another on teachers: $47,000 Salary & Benefits

And, here's another: Chicago Public School Salary Schedule | eHow.com

So far, it's you who is batting 0.

From your last source:

Lane I

Teachers in Lane I, Step 1 earn a base salary of $49,159. After teaching for five years, a teacher can earn $59,585. With 20 years of service, a teacher can earn $81,708 per year.

Lanes II and III

Lane II is for teachers who have a master's degree. Step 1 salary for these teachers is $52,564, while Step 5 pays $62,991 per year. With 20 years, a Lane II teacher can earn $85,215. Lane III teachers have a master's degree and 15 hours of approved graduate credit. Their first step salary is $54,267, and the Step 5 salary is $64,694. After 20 years in Lane II, a teacher can earn $86,968.

Lanes IV, V and VI

A Lane IV teacher holds a master's degree and 30 hours of approved graduate credit. The Step 1 salary for Lane IV is $55,969, while Step 5's salary is $66,396. After 20 years, the salary of a Lane IV teacher is $88,721. Lane V teachers have a master's degree and 45 hours of approved graduate credit. They earn $57,671 in Step 1 of their Lane, and Step 5 means a salary of $68,099. With 20 years of teaching, a Lane V teacher earns $90,473. A teacher in Lane VI holds a doctorate degree. Step 1 of Lane VI is $59,374, while Step 5 pays $69,801. After 20 years, a teacher in Lane VI earns $92,227 per year.


That's sounds pretty sweet to me.
 
There's no flippin' way a Chicago teacher on average makes the exact same as teachers in my district (about $47,000). No way.

I'm not going back to look for the three freakin' times I've posted a link to Chicago Public Schools' site discussing salary, but they make $70,000+ -- I think its $71,000 on average. And start at about $47,250. Ha! Can you tell I'm frustrated?
 
I'm not going back to look for the three freakin' times I've posted a link to Chicago Public Schools' site discussing salary, but they make $70,000+ -- I think its $71,000 on average. And start at about $47,250. Ha! Can you tell I'm frustrated?

jet seems to think that "starting salary" is the same as "average salary". I guess that wasn't taught in his history major classes.
 
I'm not going back to look for the three freakin' times I've posted a link to Chicago Public Schools' site discussing salary, but they make $70,000+ -- I think its $71,000 on average. And start at about $47,250. Ha! Can you tell I'm frustrated?

Here's another:
IIRC: District
 
Actually, he was noting an important distinction between secondary-ed teachers and professors. That you failed to understand this further suggests that you don't really know very much about this general subject.

No he was mincing words and trying to put two categories together that don't belong in the Chicago teacher's strike discussion.
 
I am not talking about "social" assessments, whatever they are (Good hygiene? Ability to play well with others?). I am talking about measurement and assessment in education--measurable "outcomes" and etc.

Don't know what part of the country you're from, but if you Google, you can locate the accrediting agency for your state and/or region. When you do, you will see for yourself what I'm talking about.

And BTW, at some point you just might want to wonder if just maybe I might know what I'm talking about and why. ;)

You haven't convinced me that you know what you're talking about. You've entered sources into a discussion with no context.

Sate your case.
 
Whatever you say. :roll:
 
Still no discussion about the ACT's effect on teacher evaluations? Still moaning and whining about how teachers "make too much"? Wow, just, wow.
 
Back
Top Bottom