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Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

OpportunityCost said:
Know all those people in their 20s with degrees that cant find work? Pick one school and replace all the teachers with new hires. Bet they come back to the table in a hurry.
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An excellent idea. And in my opinion, the fewer education majors teaching, the better anyway.
 
I have now seen more than a couple posts telling people NOT to blame teachers for students not learning.

This is not at the heart of the issue. At the heart of the issue is...teachers going on strike "for the kids"...for which I can, and will blame them.

Can congress go on strike? Is the service they offer the public any more important?
 
nathanj63 said:
I would be interested to see a comparative study between schools in Chicago and schools in other cities that have similar rates of poverty and similar racial makeups. I would honestly be surprised if Chicago was not better than many other similar cities. I'm not trying to pass the buck, and I think a 40% dropout rate is abyssmal, but I feel like people are blaming teachers and we can only do so much. There are huge problems such as poverty, dangerous neighborhoods, drug use, broken homes, absentee parents, etc. that are beyond a teachers control. The schools in Chicago do not have terrible dropout rates and terrible test scores because of the teachers. Teachers are not societies whipping posts, and the lack of respect that we are given honestly has a lot to do with why we are on strike. My favorite sign on the picket line today was something like "I would settle for RESPECT."

Instead of blaming Chicago teachers for low test scores and graduation, you should be commending them for teaching in an environment that is so challenging and difficult. I personally am no slouch. I got my bachelors in Mathematics at UC Berkeley and could probably teach in the best school in the suburbs if I wanted but I wanted to use my talents where they are most needed. And the thanks I get is being blamed for societies ills? C'mon. Use a little common sense people!
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It's very unfortunate that teachers take the rap for the reputation of their unions. But that's just the way it's going to be until/unless we change the system. When taxpayers are taxed to the point of really serious burden, something's got to give. When something's got to give, then taxpayers look at who to blame. When teachers are making more money than the median income in the towns they serve, and yet those towns are required to pay their salaries and fund their benefits, who should they look to when their property taxes begin to strangle them?

Chicago teachers are well paid. Very well paid. Excellent benefits and fabulous pensions. Those pensions haven't been funded properly by the legislature. Our state is now strangling in pension under-funding that is, I think, second only to California in scope.

Our Governor just increased our state income tax by 67%. But wait! Our Democratic legislature has seen to it that pensions are not taxable at the state level. A wonderful gift to to the couple receiving $2,000 between them in Social Security benefits. A wonderful treasure chest to two teachers who've retired and earning 5 times that each month.

I have teachers in my family, and friends who are teachers, both in Chicago and in the suburbs. They are wonderful people. I'm sure they're all excellent teachers. I hold them no malice, but I sure don't discuss these kinds of situations with them. My property taxes are $4,800 a year for a 3-bedroom, 2-bath, 1-car garage home, probably 1200 sq. ft. if that, no family room -- in the suburbs. 70% +- of that goes to schools. Taxpayers are over-burdened. And getting a handle on the problem is like herding cats. Teachers just get caught in the crossfire.

Public sector unions should not exist. As long as they do? The public will look at them as one more evil stepsister.
 
My wife agrees with you 100% Josie. She has been sitting here reading this whole thread. ;) Course I wont let her on otherwise I cantz mess with ya abouts proper grammar and spellins
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As a society, we radically undervalue, and underpay, teachers. I deeply appreciate the willingness of these teachers to risk their livelihoods to fight against that problem.
 
I have a question...

Is a teacher making twice the average salary of working people in her town overpaid?
 
teamosil said:
As a society, we radically undervalue, and underpay, teachers. I deeply appreciate the willingness of these teachers to risk their livelihoods to fight against that problem.
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I simply cannot imagine how you could have that opinion. Average teacher salary in California is somewhere around $68,000 a year. They get terrific pensions, unlike the private sector. Your state is a complete mess thanks, in part, to teachers' and other public sector employees' pensions. Your state is on the verge of bankruptcy.

Managers and Administrators in your public school system are inappropriately spiking their pensions requiring a special board to be set up to audit them. After investigating 175 pensions over $100,000 a year, the group found 28 pensions that had been inappropriately enhanced. Two glaring examples: one superintendent's pension was reduced by 25% from, now get this!! $24,000 a month to $19,000 a month. Another Assistant Superintendent had her pension reduced from $17,000 to $15,900 a month.

California controller urges better auditing in teacher pension system - Los Angeles Times

How much more you would pay them?
 
Josie said:
I have a question...

Is a teacher making twice the average salary of working people in her town overpaid?
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Twice the salary of working people? WTF? Are you implying that teachers don't work?

Let me give you a personal example. My mom was a public school first grade teacher. She worked for 30 or so years and when she retired about maybe 7 years ago she was making $37,000 a year. She has a master's degree plus 45 credits in education. During the school year, she worked M-F from 7:30 AM until about 8 PM typically. She worked usually something like 10 hours a weekend during the school year. During the summers she would typically take about 2 weeks off to take me and my brother camping or something like that, but other than that she would be working maybe an average of 5 hours a day. All told, she certainly worked more hours a year than your typical worker in most industries. Out of that $37,000 a year, she spend something like $5,000 out of her own pocket on supplies the school couldn't afford, buying things like jackets for kids who couldn't afford them, and covering other miscellaneous expenses for field trips and that kind of thing. She wrote the math curriculum for the entire state and then developed a reading program for kids with developmental disabilities that has had two Phd. dissertations written about it, has been written up in a number of national magazines, and has been adopted by about a dozen school districts around the country. She is retired now, but she still spends several weeks each year working on updating the reading program on her own time and sending the updates around to the schools that have adopted it. She was chosen for the teacher of the year award for the state, but she turned it down because she didn't like people making a big deal out of her. She has pulled kids out of abusive home situations, she has gone over to kids' houses at night when their parents were out of the picture to cook them dinner, and all kinds of other stuff like that. She is one of the smartest, hardest working, people I know. Were she in the private sector she would easily have been making six figures. Probably high six figures.

So when I hear people ranting about how it isn't really work and they're paid too much... Well, it just fills me with disgust. What an awful, cruel, ignorant, thing to say. For shame.
 
teamosil said:
Twice the salary of working people? WTF? Are you implying that teachers don't work?

Let me give you a personal example. My mom was a public school first grade teacher. She worked for 30 or so years and when she retired about maybe 7 years ago she was making $37,000 a year. She has a master's degree plus 45 credits in education. During the school year, she worked M-F from 7:30 AM until about 8 PM typically. She worked usually something like 10 hours a weekend during the school year. During the summers she would typically take about 2 weeks off to take me and my brother camping or something like that, but other than that she would be working maybe an average of 5 hours a day. All told, she certainly worked more hours a year than your typical worker in most industries. Out of that $37,000 a year, she spend something like $5,000 out of her own pocket on supplies the school couldn't afford, buying things like jackets for kids who couldn't afford them, and covering other miscellaneous expenses for field trips and that kind of thing. She wrote the math curriculum for the entire state and then developed a reading program for kids with developmental disabilities that has had two Phd. dissertations written about it, has been written up in a number of national magazines, and has been adopted by about a dozen school districts around the country. She is retired now, but she still spends several weeks each year working on updating the reading program on her own time and sending the updates around to the schools that have adopted it. She was chosen for the teacher of the year award for the state, but she turned it down because she didn't like people making a big deal out of her. She has pulled kids out of abusive home situations, she has gone over to kids' houses at night when their parents were out of the picture to cook them dinner, and all kinds of other stuff like that. She is one of the smartest, hardest working, people I know. Were she in the private sector she would easily have been making six figures. Probably high six figures.

So when I hear people ranting about how it isn't really work and they're paid too much... Well, it just fills me with disgust. What an awful, cruel, ignorant, thing to say. For shame.
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Ummm......Josie is a teacher.
 
MaggieD said:
I simply cannot imagine how you could have that opinion. Average teacher salary in California is somewhere around $68,000 a year.
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Yeah! Think of that! In CA the median income is just over $60k, and teachers, who in CA almost always have to have freaking master's degrees, barely even make above that! Ridiculous! How can we value educating children less than we value things like managing a 7-11?
 
Josie said:
I have a question...

Is a teacher making twice the average salary of working people in her town overpaid?
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It's being said that you are a teacher. So, how much do you make, and are you making twice what people in your town make?
 
teamosil said:
As a society, we radically undervalue, and underpay, teachers. I deeply appreciate the willingness of these teachers to risk their livelihoods to fight against that problem.
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Not in Chicago. They rape taxpayers because they are unrealistic and spoiled. Non union teachers get about $15K a year less and do more PLUS they are held accountable. Dont let teachers unions play you for the fool.
 
Josie said:
I have a question...

Is a teacher making twice the average salary of working people in her town overpaid?
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Nope! It means the income levels in your town are low, relatively speaking.
 
The Giant Noodle said:
Not in Chicago. They rape taxpayers because they are unrealistic and spoiled. Non union teachers get about $15K a year less and do more PLUS they are held accountable. Dont let teachers unions play you for the fool.
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That's just right wing hate, it has nothing to do with reality. The GOP likes to pitch that line because it appeals to folks who didn't do very well in school and hate teachers as a result. That's all that is- the GOP courting the stupid vote.
 
teamosil said:
That's just right wing hate, it has nothing to do with reality. The GOP likes to pitch that line because it appeals to folks who didn't do very well in school and hate teachers as a result. That's all that is- the GOP courting the stupid vote.
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Try again.....Illinois Teachers make less than CPS teachers. That has nothing to with the GOP. Besides that, Illinois and California have been controlled By Demo governments for like 75 years or so.
 
teamosil said:
Yeah! Think of that! In CA the median income is just over $60k, and teachers, who in CA almost always have to have freaking master's degrees, barely even make above that! Ridiculous! How can we value educating children less than we value things like managing a 7-11?
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But the issue here isn't California; it's Chicago. And don't kid a kidder; this strike doesn't have one damned thing to do with the kids or with education as a theory or in practice. It's about the money.

And I still hope that Mayor Emanuel will do what Reagan did to the air traffic controllers. I was dating one at the time of that strike, and, boy, was he surprised. Never dreamed that the President would call their bluff and can them all.
 
nota bene said:
But the issue here isn't California; it's Chicago. And don't kid a kidder; this strike doesn't have one damned thing to do with the kids or with education as a theory or in practice. It's about the money.

And I still hope that Mayor Emanuel will do what Reagan did to the air traffic controllers. I was dating one at the time of that strike, and, boy, was he surprised. Never dreamed that the President would call their bluff and can them all.
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Yeah, I think it is about the money. And good for them. Again, teachers are a radically undervalued and underpaid profession. It is an intellectually and emotionally demanding jobs. It is one of the most important jobs in our society. It requires far more education than the typical job to get. And yet we pay for it like we pay for managing a Starbucks. It is a travesty and I am glad that these folks are willing to take the risks and accept the costs of fighting to correct that.
 
teamosil said:
Yeah, I think it is about the money. And good for them. Again, teachers are a radically undervalued and underpaid profession. It is an intellectually and emotionally demanding jobs. It is one of the most important jobs in our society. It requires far more education than the typical job to get. And yet we pay for it like we pay for managing a Starbucks. It is a travesty and I am glad that these folks are willing to take the risks and accept the costs of fighting to correct that.
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Well according to Lewis and Emanuel.....seems the sticking Point are those Evaluations. Despite being given more money than previously offered and regardless of the 700 millon of being in the hole.
 
Continue to attack teachers and expect them not to take it as a threat to their very way of life. Yes, keep that up and see how well that works out for you. As in, do not be surprised at all when teachers feel that being assaulted and they resort to their last line of defense--unions.

But who am I kidding. The lynch mob wants who the lynch mob wants. And there will be no quieting them until the power of every public school teacher in America is shredded and destroyed. Cause, you know, that's pretty much how lynch mobs tend to operate.
 
Here's the modern deal, and like it or not: Measurement and assessment are the current kings. Student evals count, and the accrediting agencies pay attention. Ask yourself why student evals are such a concern. And use Google to learn what the measurements are and whether they are fair.

Have you done this? If you haven't, then your opinion is uninformed. Are you aware of the criteria, formalized, by which teachers are assessed? If you are, to which measurements do you object?

And as another issue, do "caring professions"--teachers, nurses, EMS's, and others--have a special obligation that, say, accountants and welders, don't have? What happens when "essential services" aren't provided? Do muncipal codes/job descriptions do enough to spell out the special obligations that some professions do have? Is it okay for all of a city's firefighters or teachers or cops to walk off the job the way accountants and welders do?
 
MMC said:
Well according to Lewis and Emanuel.....seems the sticking Point are those Evaluations. Despite being given more money than previously offered and regardless of the 700 millon of being in the hole.
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See, this is part of the problem IMO. When a city or state government gets in debt, some people just assume that that means that the people who work for that city or state should shoulder that burden, but really there isn't any more reason it ought to come out of their paycheck than out of your paycheck. Think how that would be to have your pay docked any time your state or local government got in to financial trouble... They aren't political footballs. They're people who went into a noble profession because we asked them to, and once they make that commitment to us, it is pretty difficult to transition in to any other field. They pretty much threw themselves on our mercy and IMO we return that trust with political bs... Some politician wants to score point with this group or that group so they try to cut the teacher's salaries and whatnot... The strikes are really the only option they have to push back and they don't use it until they're really backed in to a corner. IMO we should stand with them, not against them, when they find themselves in that kind of situation.
 
Is it really so difficult for teachers to "transition" into other fields?
 
nota bene said:
Is it really so difficult for teachers to "transition" into other fields?
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Yeah, it is. You spend all kinds of time and money getting a bs and usually a master's degree in education that is pretty much useless in other fields, you have a very specific kind of experience that isn't really useful in very many other fields. Somebody with a master's degree and 25 years of experience might find that their best option to transfer into another field would be to work in a Starbucks or whatever.
 
teamosil said:
See, this is part of the problem IMO. When a city or state government gets in debt, some people just assume that that means that the people who work for that city or state should shoulder that burden, but really there isn't any more reason it ought to come out of their paycheck than out of your paycheck. Think how that would be to have your pay docked any time your state or local government got in to financial trouble... They aren't political footballs. They're people who went into a noble profession because we asked them to, and once they make that commitment to us, it is pretty difficult to transition in to any other field. They pretty much threw themselves on our mercy and IMO we return that trust with political bs... Some politician wants to score point with this group or that group so they try to cut the teacher's salaries and whatnot... The strikes are really the only option they have to push back and they don't use it until they're really backed in to a corner. IMO we should stand with them, not against them, when they find themselves in that kind of situation.
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Threw themselves on our mercy. There are lines around the block twice to be a teacher in the Chicago area. There is no shortage of teachers willing to take on the burdensome low-paying jobs that are teachers today. I wonder why that is? Could it be they're not low-paying? Nope. Can't be that. Could it be that it's not burdensome? Nope. Can't we that. Could it be that moms find it a wonderful way to work and raise a family? Nope. Can't be that.

So. Why then?

Me? My "pay" was docked when Governor Quinn raised my state income tax by 67%. 'Course teacher pensions don't count. They're state-tax free. So it doesn't come of their pockets. My "pay" was docked last year when my real estate tax bill went up by 15%, 70% of which goes towards schools.

My next-door neighbor, on the other hand, had his pay docked when he was laid off eight months ago. The guy across the street had his pay docked when he was forced to take a 5% pay cut or get a new job.

There's plenty of people sacrificing each and every day. That the Chicago Teachers' Union finds 16% over four years unacceptable is ludicrous. That they absolutely refuse to implement (in a trial program) evaluations that they themselves had a part in creating is ludicrous. That they absolutely reject merit pay is ludicrous.

But. It's all for the children.
 
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teamosil said:
See, this is part of the problem IMO. When a city or state government gets in debt, some people just assume that that means that the people who work for that city or state should shoulder that burden, but really there isn't any more reason it ought to come out of their paycheck than out of your paycheck. Think how that would be to have your pay docked any time your state or local government got in to financial trouble... They aren't political footballs. They're people who went into a noble profession because we asked them to, and once they make that commitment to us, it is pretty difficult to transition in to any other field. They pretty much threw themselves on our mercy and IMO we return that trust with political bs... Some politician wants to score point with this group or that group so they try to cut the teacher's salaries and whatnot... The strikes are really the only option they have to push back and they don't use it until they're really backed in to a corner. IMO we should stand with them, not against them, when they find themselves in that kind of situation.
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Hmmmm.....I believe several others already brought up those property taxes that pay for Education and Schools. For their own Communities, suburbs and or districts.

Maybe if they would have used the lottery for what they said they were going to use it for. Instead of Raiding it and lobbying it and tieing it together with other states so as to hide the exacts amounts of money being hidden cannot be detected. They wouldnt be in such a debt. Whatcha think?
 
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