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Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

Harry Guerrilla said:
Well see, if you think teacher quality is a huge factor in student achievement, then Chicago pub school teachers have a lot of explaining to do.
Either way, they're hosed.

What are the Chicago tax payers getting for their investment.
The stats show, not a whole lot.
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Here was your statement

I think the evidence has shown that teachers have a marginal impact over how a student performs.
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that is an allegation of fact based on evidence which you have not provided. I would very much like to see that evidence.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Well see, if you think teacher quality is a huge factor in student achievement, then Chicago pub school teachers have a lot of explaining to do.
Either way, they're hosed.

What are the Chicago tax payers getting for their investment.
The stats show, not a whole lot.
Click to expand...

A 40 % drop out rate and a 20% functional illiteracy rate...

in my class only getting 40% right is an F

Chicago Drop Out Rate
 
The American system of public education for most is an assembly line system that ignores actual learning and achievement in favor of the cheapest and most cost effective way to educate tens of millions of students at a time.

Until we speak to that reality and take significant steps to change that system, you can change all the schools you want to change and move teachers around like you are playing musical chairs but until you face the reality that the factory assembly line system does not work for many - these are the results you will get because you accept them as part of the system.
 
Well there is the other 60% of the evaluation process.....which won't have anything to do with whats going on with the kids and will be factored in. Do you think that would be assessing them on.....What they do?
 
haymarket said:
Here was your statement
Click to expand...

I know what I said.


haymarket said:
that is an allegation of fact based on evidence which you have not provided. I would very much like to see that evidence.
Click to expand...

The Family and Student Achievement | RAND

What Teacher Characteristics Affect Student Achievement? Findings from Los Angeles Public Schools | RAND

So tell me, why are we paying these teachers so much?
If teachers are the largest factor in student achievement, then these teachers are clearly failing.
If they are not, then why should we be paying them so much?
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
I know what I said.




The Family and Student Achievement | RAND

What Teacher Characteristics Affect Student Achievement? Findings from Los Angeles Public Schools | RAND

So tell me, why are we paying these teachers so much?
If teachers are the largest factor in student achievement, then these teachers are clearly failing.
If they are not, then why should we be paying them so much?
Click to expand...

I see nothing in those "studies" which indicates that teachers have little or "marginal impact " (to use your word) on a students education.

I have no idea what RAND is or how they do their 'studies' but I would refer you to this:

National Board for Professional Teaching Standards: Redefining Teacher Quality

Research has shown that the single most influential school-based factor affecting student achievement is teacher quality1. Therefore, the most important thing that schools and policymakers can do is to ensure that every student has a highly accomplished teacher.
Click to expand...

The study used to make this statement is cited.
 
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haymarket said:
Here was your statement



that is an allegation of fact based on evidence which you have not provided. I would very much like to see that evidence.
Click to expand...

Chicago has a nearly 40% drop out rate... you mean teachers can't motivate even 2/3rds of thier students to complete their high school diploma?

As a college professor I find this sad.
 
haymarket said:
I see nothing in those "studies" which indicates that teachers have little or "marginal impact " (to use your word) on a students education.

I have no idea what RAND is or how they do their 'studies' but I would refer you to this:

National Board for Professional Teaching Standards: Redefining Teacher Quality
Click to expand...

Ok, so I am wrong.
Now tell me, with teachers having such a large contribution to student achievement, why do these Chicago teachers deserve raises, when they are failing?
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Ok, so I am wrong.
Now tell me, with teachers having such a large contribution to student achievement, why do these Chicago teachers deserve raises, when they are failing?
Click to expand...

What evidence do you have that the teachers are failing?
 
haymarket said:
I thought that was clear. No matter where the kid goes, its still the same kid operating years behind with the same skill levels. Changing the building where he goes does nothing to change that reality.
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Yes, the poor child has indeed suffered a serious setback by such incompetent schooling. Had his parents had the choice to patronize their choice of provider from the very start, perhaps the child would not have been damaged so severely. But even at this late stage, it would still be better if the parents could cancel their current contract and switch to a more effective school, in order to try to remediate the damage as best as possible.
 
Federalist said:
Yes, the poor child has indeed suffered a serious setback by such incompetent schooling. Had his parents had the choice to patronize their choice of provider from the very start, perhaps the child would not have been damaged so severely. But even at this late stage, it would still be better if the parents could cancel their current contract and switch to a more effective school, in order to try to remediate the damage as best as possible.
Click to expand...

I have personally toured scores of charter schools, private schools and public schools. ALL I have seen use the factory assembly line system.

I am sure that one could find exclusive private academies charging 20K or more per year to avoid the assembly line - at least in part but I have never been in one nor do I know of any that fits what needs to be done.
 
I notice that the usual ardent proponents of unions are not present in this thread. I find their absence speaks far more than they every could with mere words, were they to participate here.

Let no one, NO ONE, say that a teacher's job is easy, first and foremost. You think it's easy, I call BS, and say you've simply never done it before. It's only easy if you don't care, and have no pride. I've taught, but not in a classroom like at school...but for the Boy Scouts. It's not easy.

Let no one, NO ONE, say that teachers don't care about their students. I simply don't believe that's true. I know too many teachers, in my personal life, to make such a claim, and actually believe.

Let ANYONE say, however, that a teacher's UNION...cares not one tiny shred about a student, any student, nor for the people paying the salaries of the union members. This is the part where the collective truly does bring out the absolute worst in otherwise good people. Where the mob turns good men and women into little more thanb savages, metaphorically speaking.

When you take a job, you have several things on the table. First and foremost, do you actually WANT the job? Is it something you want to do? For most of us, going to work is only a little better than going to, say, the dentist. At least dental visits get over with fairly quickly, if not always painless, lol. In that light, when we take these jobs that we don't REALLY want, we use the item on the table to mitigate it. Pay. Generally, unless I think a job is gonna be something special, I set a number in my head for what I feel I can get, vs what I need, etc, and then go for that number. Employer fails to hit that number? No loss, I stay where I am, job wise. (unemployed people is an entirely different debate) What I'm trying to say, in a roundabout way is, you take a job because you need one, but you mitigate this need with trying to find one you like, vs also paying the bills, or getting payed more for something you don't like.

Teachers either like their jobs or they don't. They either agree to the pay they bargained for upon being hired, or they don't, and don't get hired. Follow me? When a company is not doing well ( and THIS company is currently NOT doing very well), can an employee expect to get raises? Not really, not unless you are in a position of extreme power and influence. Teachers are not, and should not be...the tax payer is, and should be.

Are the parents of these kids going to be re-embursed for this?:(
 
haymarket said:
The American system of public education for most is an assembly line system that ignores actual learning and achievement in favor of the cheapest and most cost effective way to educate tens of millions of students at a time.

Until we speak to that reality and take significant steps to change that system, you can change all the schools you want to change and move teachers around like you are playing musical chairs but until you face the reality that the factory assembly line system does not work for many - these are the results you will get because you accept them as part of the system.
Click to expand...

Then we have to stop doing the same thing over and over and over and over again and expecting different results, yes? BUT. CTU and others like it will fight to the death to preserve...what? The status quo. They fight for more art classes....more music. All tokens -- because what they're really fighting for is more money, more job security, less healthcare costs, more CPS pension contributions, and no accountability. In the meantime, the students can't even read.
 
MaggieD said:
Then we have to stop doing the same thing over and over and over and over again and expecting different results, yes? BUT. CTU and others like it will fight to the death to preserve...what? The status quo. They fight for more art classes....more music. All tokens -- because what they're really fighting for is more money, more job security, less healthcare costs, more CPS pension contributions, and no accountability. In the meantime, the students can't even read.
Click to expand...

I believe that things like art history, visual arts, music, and music history are important parts of a person's education.

I think our problem is, we don't let teachers teach. If I were teach, say, World History, I would include art history, and musical history, in one big package. Look at the History Channel. Do they focus only one one aspect? Almost never. Why? Because then it would be boring, and no one would watch it. But it's not boring, and people DO watch it, unlike 8th grade history, which bored me to death, and left me with a VERY fractured and incomplete picture. And I got all A's.
 
haymarket said:
What evidence do you have that the teachers are failing?
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I think it's pretty easy, we keep pouring more and more money into our classroom with less and less results. The teachers unions protect teachers, not the students. The teachers unions could care less about the students. You can't fire a bad teacher, now tell me they care about the students. Teachers unions only have thing in mind, exchange their vote for higher wages, benefits, and shorter hours..
 
Maybe someone better at math than I can figure this one out...


About how much does it cost, PER student, to have public schools?

Why not, instead, have a public education FUND, pool that money, at the very least...and let PARENTS hire private tutors.


Likely, the kids get a better education, costs the parents LESS, AND the private tutors likely get paid more if they are any good...and....as a bonus, it puts LOTS of people to work...to the tune of a tutor per every household.


Over simplified, but I think this gets the point across about public school as it currently stands, yes?
 
Four philanthropists are ponying up $5 million total to bankroll merit pay for Chicago Public School principals as part of a program that will be unique in the nation and eventually expand to teacher merit pay, Mayor Rahm Emanuel revealed Monday. <<<<<Oct 2011

However, Emanuel said his principal merit pay program will be unique in that it will include training principals to a set of expectations outlined in a new “principal performance contract’’ that is still being drafted.

His program will be a comprehensive, integrated approach — “the first of its kind anywhere in the country” — that doesn’t just rely on “‘You’ll get a bonus.’ It relies on objective standards, measured, re-training and training, and the performance is tied to exceeding those objective goals,’’ Emanuel said. A new Chicago Leadership Collaborative will oversee the project.

Thus far, four wealthy Chicago families — all of them major contributors to Emanuel and prime education-reform movers —.....snip~

Rahm-Emanuel:-$5-million-for-Chicago-school-principals


Being Good For the Administration.....but not good for teachers. How do teachers get around that? Course I would be concerned about some NEW Collaborative as Emanuel puts it. Have to watch out for his Socialistic Ideas from the Collective. ;)

Another reason to get City Politics out of Education IMO!
 
MMC said:
Four philanthropists are ponying up $5 million total to bankroll merit pay for Chicago Public School principals as part of a program that will be unique in the nation and eventually expand to teacher merit pay, Mayor Rahm Emanuel revealed Monday. <<<<<Oct 2011

However, Emanuel said his principal merit pay program will be unique in that it will include training principals to a set of expectations outlined in a new “principal performance contract’’ that is still being drafted.

His program will be a comprehensive, integrated approach — “the first of its kind anywhere in the country” — that doesn’t just rely on “‘You’ll get a bonus.’ It relies on objective standards, measured, re-training and training, and the performance is tied to exceeding those objective goals,’’ Emanuel said. A new Chicago Leadership Collaborative will oversee the project.

Thus far, four wealthy Chicago families — all of them major contributors to Emanuel and prime education-reform movers —.....snip~

Rahm-Emanuel:-$5-million-for-Chicago-school-principals


Being Good For the Administration.....but not good for teachers. How do teachers get around that? Course I would be concerned about some NEW Collaborative as Emanuel puts it. Have to watch out for his Socialistic Ideas from the Collective. ;)

Another reason to get City Politics out of Education IMO!
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The union will NOT let that happen.

Edit: Wait! I wonder if principals are members of the union? Perhaps this is a way to incentivize them to jump through the horrendous hoops required to dismiss an incompetent teacher...to allow in-school improvisation. If they aren't union members, this could be a wonderful thing. If they are? I'm back to, "It'll never happen."
 
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