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Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

haymarket said:
I do not know about giving away the store since I do not have access to their entire contract history.

If Mayor Emmanuel wants teachers to work a longer day and perform more labor, then it is right and just for the union to ask for an appropriate increase in compensation taking that increased labor into consideration.
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And if the city can't afford that increase, then they shouldn't increase the length of the day.
 
Samhain said:
Would be nice if they could just invalidate the contracts, fire them all, and post all 26,000 jobs.
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No, because then we'd still have a horrible evaluation system that screws the best teachers and students, many Chicago students will still lack science/art/music/phys. ed. class and many students wouldn't have the necessary counseling services.
 
haymarket said:
I do not know about giving away the store since I do not have access to their entire contract history.

If Mayor Emmanuel wants teachers to work a longer day and perform more labor, then it is right and just for the union to ask for an appropriate increase in compensation taking that increased labor into consideration.
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They've asked for it. We'll have to see what happens. Unfortunately, the union hasn't put up their latest demands, so the public has no idea how far apart they are. Actually, it's very difficult for me to believe that Rahm Emanuel has taken on the teachers' union right about now. I wonder where this will finally land.
 
ThePlayDrive said:
And if the city can't afford that increase, then they shouldn't increase the length of the day.
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I believe that makes perfect sense both in general terms and financial terms.
 
MaggieD said:
They've asked for it. We'll have to see what happens. Unfortunately, the union hasn't put up their latest demands, so the public has no idea how far apart they are. Actually, it's very difficult for me to believe that Rahm Emanuel has taken on the teachers' union right about now. I wonder where this will finally land.
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To be honest Maggie, I feel the same way. To this day I have tons of questions about his tenure as the White House Chief of Staff. When his appointment was announced, I celebrated and thought this was a definite signal that Obama was going to be tough. Rahm always had a reputation as a tough cookie and somebody you did not mess with if you did not want to risk your own blood being spilled. I thought he was just the guy to grab the ballbat and drive a nine inch nail through it and go right for the forehead of certain SOB's in Congress.

But he never did that.

Instead, he seemed on a very short leash and was not allowed to be the attack dog that we thought he was... either that or he was all hype and no attack dog to begin with.

So maybe he is trying to put back together his reputation at the expense of Chicago teachers?
 
ThePlayDrive said:
No, because then we'd still have a horrible evaluation system that screws the best teachers and students, many Chicago students will still lack science/art/music/phys. ed. class and many students wouldn't have the necessary counseling services.
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Chicago schools are running a yearly billion dollar deficit. Anything short of total overhaul isn't going to fix their issues.
 
MaggieD said:
They've asked for it. We'll have to see what happens. Unfortunately, the union hasn't put up their latest demands, so the public has no idea how far apart they are. Actually, it's very difficult for me to believe that Rahm Emanuel has taken on the teachers' union right about now. I wonder where this will finally land.
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Well.....Emanuel knows the City is in the Red. They don't have enought to pay their bills now. Plus they are threatening another credit downgrade. Which will prevent them from even being able to borrow the same amount of money as before.

Moreover he told them if they were close and not that far apart, why stop talking. So someone isn't talking. It don't look like it is CPS and the City.
 
MMC said:
That could be due to a couple of other Illinois Suburbs where they have teachers about to go on strike.....Correct?

Seems most of the members of the IEA dont reflect what Union Servants always have those same sentiments about. Course CPS should wake up to the fact about more and more of those . Charter Schools starting up to replace those that want the free ride. That Communities themselves, the people, the Parents all looking to begin to move in that direction. Because they are tired of the games.
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No, the IEA has stated that it and its 130,000 members put their full support behind CTU which means that that the CTU is headed in the same direction as they are. You were wrong.

I'm not sure what the rest of your point about charter schools and communities is. If you're trying to say that communities don't support the direction CTU is trying to move in, then you're wrong because "Among public school parents, 48 percent sided with the teachers union and 18 percent sided with the mayor. Thirty percent said they sided with neither.

Moreover other Illinois School districts are not connected to City politics and therefore aren't as......a wasteful bureacracy that the CPS is. Most other Illinois teachers have been giving of their time. Most other Illinois teachers were working all damn day and looked for events to spend time with their kids and their parents. They didnt just work 5 and half hrs and hurry that azz out of school. Worrying about what neighborhoods they are in just to rush home.

Course most other Illinois Teachers don't start out making all that money and getting all those benefits. Not to mention how many Institutional days CPS Teachers get to take a day off for. Or at least half of it. Do you think hanging out at a luncheon under the Auspices of Working and getting paid for it. Should be considered as a Norm With Education? Can you explain why it's a common thing for CPS Teachers?

The Board of Education also is tied to City Politics and knows exactly where the city stands economically, finacially, and that the city is in the red and broke!
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Eh, most of this is just unsubstantiated claims about how hard Chicago teachers work and so on. I've substantiated my positions which directly contradict some of yours. Unless you can provide evidence that your arguments are correct, I'm done here. I'm a fact person, not a "make unsubstantiated claims and then ask others to disprove them" kind of person. When you acquire some of the former, let me know with a link please.
 
ThePlayDrive said:
No, because then we'd still have a horrible evaluation system that screws the best teachers and students, many Chicago students will still lack science/art/music/phys. ed. class and many students wouldn't have the necessary counseling services.
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It's a little difficult to worry much about art and music for students when 40% of them don't graduate high school. CPS: Highest Graduation Rate On Record For Five-Year Grads in 2012, District Predicts

And when only 20% of 8th Graders test at grade level for reading . . . and when only 21% of 8th Graders test at grade level for math. The CPS system is failing generations.

That "horrible evaluation system" has been around for forty years. CPS and teachers collaborated on a new system...the teachers' union is fighting it's "trial implementation" where this year's results would only impact non-tenured teachers and be advisory to tenured ones.
 
haymarket said:
Maggie - you strike me as a basically fair person. Do you think it is proper that if one is asked to perform substantially more labor, than one is appropriately compensated for that increase in work?

For example, if you employ me to cut your lawn once a week and trim the landscape every three weeks and I agree to do this for $150.00 a month and then you state that you also want me to clean out your gutters once a month in addition to my normal tasks, is it not appropriate to ask for more compensation for more work?
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You can ask, but if I say no, I cannot pay more, I can barely afford you as it is, and further, if you don't start cleaning the gutters I'm going to have to find someone else who will for $150 a month. Then you are faced with a choice, let the competition have my business, or clean my gutters.

However, the situations aren't really analogous. And why goto analogy? It's not necessary, the situation is clear. The Mayor sees a 700 million dollar shortfall in the budget coming directly from the schools and horrid test scores. The districts and the teachers are driving the city into more debt and NOT producing. So, he has asked the teachers to work longer each day, and have their work inspected but has offered a limited raise in compensation. The teachers in return have not provided explanation as to why they're not doing their jobs adequately now, but definitely know they want more money for the job they're already doing poorly.

My grandmother used to say, there's only so much juice you can ring out of the turnip. If the teachers no longer feel they can do their jobs for the amount the city can pay, then it's quite simple that they need to go.
 
Samhain said:
Chicago schools are running a yearly billion dollar deficit. Anything short of total overhaul isn't going to fix their issues.
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And firing all the teachers isn't actually an "overhaul." All it is is firing teachers and putting the new ones in the same system. Also, if the teacher's unions demands are met (particularly, if instead of an increase in pay, the city just didn't lengthen the school day), Chicago education would vastly improve.
 
clownboy said:
You can ask, but if I say no, I cannot pay more, I can barely afford you as it is, and further, if you don't start cleaning the gutters I'm going to have to find someone else who will for $150 a month. Then you are faced with a choice, let the competition have my business, or clean my gutters.

However, the situations aren't really analogous. And why goto analogy? It's not necessary, the situation is clear. The Mayor sees a 700 million dollar shortfall in the budget coming directly from the schools and horrid test scores. The districts and the teachers are driving the city into more debt and NOT producing. So, he has asked the teachers to work longer each day, and have their work inspected but has offered a limited raise in compensation. The teachers in return have not provided explanation as to why they're not doing their jobs adequately now, but definitely know they want more money for the job they're already doing poorly.

My grandmother used to say, there's only so much juice you can ring out of the turnip. If the teachers no longer feel they can do their jobs for the amount the city can pay, then it's quite simple that they need to go.
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But it is appropriate to ask for more compensation if more work is demanded of you. That is as American as apple pie and the flag.

You claim that teachers are not doing their job or are doing them poorly but you fail to provide any verifiable proof.
 
haymarket said:
I do not know about giving away the store since I do not have access to their entire contract history.

If Mayor Emmanuel wants teachers to work a longer day and perform more labor, then it is right and just for the union to ask for an appropriate increase in compensation taking that increased labor into consideration.
Click to expand...


No, companies going broke do cut wages and do extend hours of work. They also lay people off and require remain employees to do more.
Should the school district instead lay off teachers to make up the shortfall in the budget?
 
ThePlayDrive said:
No, the IEA has stated that it and its 130,000 members put their full support behind CTU which means that that the CTU is headed in the same direction as they are. You were wrong.

I'm not sure what the rest of your point about charter schools and communities is. If you're trying to say that communities don't support the direction CTU is trying to move in, then you're wrong because "Among public school parents, 48 percent sided with the teachers union and 18 percent sided with the mayor. Thirty percent said they sided with neither.


Eh, most of this is just unsubstantiated claims about how hard Chicago teachers work and so on. I've substantiated my positions which directly contradict some of yours. Unless you can provide evidence that your arguments are correct, I'm done here. I'm a fact person, not a "make unsubstantiated claims and then ask others to disprove them" kind of person. When you acquire some of the former, let me know with a link please.
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Well.....my wife works with Prairie Hills Schools District. Thats County Club Hills, Hazel Crest Area. With a middle school in Markham. Next to Harvey. So as far as all the teachers supporting you. Yeah thru the Union. Not personally and not even close on call. For a host of reasons!

So hardly just some sideline comments, as I have heard it from plenty of them. Especially with the younger teachers being hired in. She has had all of her friends here at the house several times. Course after the riffs with many different people.

Funny thing is she is the Music Teacher. Who does a whole helluva lot more to hold on to her job. Even with afterschool programs, as she is Rainbow Facilitator and not to mention she has to put on all the Schools Plays. Which she gives as much as of her time as she can for the kids. Including Bus duty, Lunchroom duty, and now she has had to go with Special Ed classes for Tutoring kids afterschool with Specia Needs!
 
ThePlayDrive said:
And firing all the teachers isn't actually an "overhaul." All it is is firing teachers and putting the new ones in the same system. Also, if the teacher's unions demands are met (particularly, if instead of an increase in pay, the city just didn't lengthen the school day), Chicago education would vastly improve.
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Yeah but Lewis stated it was over the Evaluation Process too. Which there was no research done that 30% of CPS teachers would lose their jobs.
 
haymarket said:
But it is appropriate to ask for more compensation if more work is demanded of you. That is as American as apple pie and the flag.

You claim that teachers are not doing their job or are doing them poorly but you fail to provide any verifiable proof.
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You don't think a 40% graduation rate failure is doing poorly? Or that only 20% of students read at grade level? Or that only 21% of students are grade-level competent in math? What kind of verifiable proof do you need? You, of all people, Haymarket, should realize what this reading short-coming means to these kids. And the union worries about music and art??

If the teachers' union were really looking out for the students? They would include student discipline in their demands. I could sure support them 1000% on that. Three strikes, you're out on your ass -- and let the kids who want to learn have a safe/conducive environment to do so. If they hammered that point home? I cannot imagine a scenerio that would include their not having full community support.

Many of Chicago's public schools are little more than baby-sitting services for gang bangers and gang-banger-wanna be's.
 
Samhain said:
Would be nice if they could just invalidate the contracts, fire them all, and post all 26,000 jobs.
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I just wrote checks and put them in the mail to pay property taxes (NYS) and it is all about school taxes. I'm not sympathetic to the teachers at this time. A good teacher, and they are rare, cannot be paid what they are truly worth, but they are about a 7% exception, in my opinion. I'm looking at test scores and see we are dumbing down our students Nationally. Retirements and benefits continue to rise. I'm usually supportive of Unions, but when they have gone too far, it's time to act and that time is now. I'm against the CPS unions in this matter and I think anyone who pays school taxes is sympathetic to my stance. They're going to be needing some really good public relations personnel to survive this debacle. Fire 'em all and hire some unemployed.
 
iliveonramen said:
Those evil Unions! How dare individuals collectively bargain!
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Collective bargaining is fine in the private sector, but in the public sector it is just plain wrong.

I sure hope those poor teachers slaving away at 75k per year, get their raises so they can stop eating dog food and foraging for food out of dumpsters.
 
Grim17 said:
Collective bargaining is fine in the private sector, but in the public sector it is just plain wrong.
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I agree. In the private sector, one is up against market pressure. In the public sector, one has the bottomless pit of the ability to tax to pull from. Though I think we're rapidly approaching bottom right about now.
 
MaggieD said:
You don't think a 40% graduation rate failure is doing poorly? Or that only 20% of students read at grade level? Or that only 21% of students are grade-level competent in math? What kind of verifiable proof do you need? You, of all people, Haymarket, should realize what this reading short-coming means to these kids. And the union worries about music and art??

If the teachers' union were really looking out for the students? They would include student discipline in their demands. I could sure support them 1000% on that. Three strikes, you're out on your ass -- and let the kids who want to learn have a safe/conducive environment to do so. If they hammered that point home? I cannot imagine a scenerio that would include their not having full community support.

Many of Chicago's public schools are little more than baby-sitting services for gang bangers and gang-banger-wanna be's.
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How do I do my part as a chef to produce a steak dinner when you as the owner of the restaurant only provide me with hamburger and a small stove with which to cook for an entire room of people.
 
Sheesh, my wife has worked 13 yrs with nothing but Excellent Evaluations and she only makes 65k. Plus she works from like 7:15am until 430-5pm. Plus the public schools wouldnt count all her time teaching at Bishop Knoll. Which was another 10. Not to mention thats not counting her getting riffed 3 times and twice Right about when she was going to make tenure. Being at the school for 3 yrs. Or them changing when one became Tenured from like 3 yrs to 4 yrs.

Steger School District pulled that one on her.
 
The fact that this is the first time in 25 years says something. Strikes like this happen when managements try and take advantage of a given situation; like this economy, and then call unions crazy for thinking of a strike. There's nothing new here. The same thing happened during the depression.
 
Here's what seems the relevant facts - discounting the whatever-the-union-wants supporters and unions-are-always-wrong union haters.

1. The school district is hundreds of millions of dollars in the hole, with even more debt than that.
2. The average teacher's salary is around $75,000 - meaning with health and retirement benefits and perks it approaches $100,000 a year.
3. The teachers work 27 1/2 hours a week - with 12 weeks vacation including the entirety of the Christmas - New Years holiday.
4. No one in the private or public sector works so few of full time hours or has as much vacation.
5. The average salary for people of similar level of education in the area is not $75/$100K a year.
6. 1 out of 8 people in the area are unemployed or seriously under-employed - not counting those who have given up looking for a job.

In response to the school district saying teachers will have to start working 35 hours a week, the teachers want annual pay increases of approximately $11,000 over the next 4 years. They are now on strike for that pay raise.

The private sector would address this by giving notice of:
1. At the end of the week they will offer all teachers' positions as available to be permanently filled at the wages and benefits being offered by the city to the teachers.
2. For any position filled, the teacher that had the position has lost his/her job to the new hire permanent replacement.
3. There will be no back pay during the strike for those teachers who do later return if their position has not been filled.

Within 4 to 6 weeks, most positions would have been filled and those not would be filled by teachers flocking back to save their jobs - when in fact virtually none could find private sector jobs paying 1/3rd what they make now take-home as teachers. I suspect most would be working part-time as waitresses/waiters, fry cooks and Wal-Mart stockers $1.50 above minimum wage with no benefits whatsoever. They would figure that out quick enough as they tried to find jobs to make up the lost income during the strike.

However, because the mayor is a "pro-labor" Democrat he doesn't have that option. Given how crappy the Chicago educational system is, I think even the people of Chicago will have little sympathy for them.

Are any of my facts above inaccurate?
 
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