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Thread: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    I consistently rail against unions, strike or no strike. Just ask around.
    Yeah, you consistently particpate in your own economic and social demise. You are exactly the type of person who needs to reread my post and take it to heart.
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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    I have provided three different sources (that I can remember here) that validate my assertion with respect to Chicago teacher's salaries. You should know that no floor walker or cashier at walmart is offered $53 K a year or anywhere close to that. What we're talking about here is averages. The anti-union people on this site, as well as the school board spokespeople have asserted that Chicago teachers average $75 K a year. According to the teachers themselves, the independent sources that I have offered as proofs as well as my own theirty years of experience in labor negotiations, tells a different story.
    And none of your "sources" has proved your point. Two of your links were not even relevant. If you actually looked at the search link Walmart, you would see that the job offers are management jobs. That is why they give $53K a year. The average in Walmart in nowhere close to $53K. I and many others have refuted your links and provided proper sources which show that teachers earn $76K and $71K after adjustment. If you want me to take you seriously, please admit you were wrong. Why is it so hard for you?

    What this entire thing is predicated on Scott Walker's firing on fort Sumpter with respect to a concerted and intentional national business plan to derail public sector unions and change the pension and benefits systems that accompany them. That is to say, there is a concerted effort in this country to put an end to pensions systems as they havebeen understood by the middle class and move that money into the capital markets.
    That is probably for the better. Either people need to pay for their own pensions, or we need a standard system for all employees. Right now politicians are handing out pensions they will never be able to pay. We need to do something, if we want a pension system when we get older.

    Only when there is a strike do the issues matter to you. Now you all shout about the welfare of the children. When before, as the schools were closing, and parents were losing their jobs and society was slipping into the netherworld, none of you cared. Now it's a big deal?? Now that those same parents (many of whom happen to be teachers) are finally taking the bull by the horns (in the American fashion), you say "they can't do that", "they should have their pay and benefits cut and be brought down to the rest of the unfortunates". Those of you; whom by choice! have no say so whatsoever in thier own work places, and complain about some big ubicquitous hand called big Government that runs everything, and whom, by choice, wilfully live under the thumb of their apparently acknowledged maters, have some nerve chasting groups of American citizens acting through their own constitutional rights that stand up to said statism; that disallows thought and action.
    I never cared about Chicago. I am just pointing out my view. Chicago can do whatever they want for my sake, I have no plans to live there. I only care about my home county Norway, New Zealand or any country that I would potentially move to. But I am quite sure if you asked me 1 year ago, I still would say teachers in Chicago earns too much.

    I don't think you get why I support them getting lower wages. It has nothing to do with what I consider a fair wage, I don't care about that. It is not to compensate for my own life. I am happy with my life and don't complain about big government stopping me. Big government can sometimes help me. I don't care that other people earn more than I do. It is about fiscal stability. What I care about is letting wages be at market level, but more importantly I care about fiscal stability. You may not have noticed, but private sector pays for public sector. That means higher wages than necessary in public sector leads to higher taxes with worse public services. Why would I want to benefit a small group at the cost of everyone else?

    Take a look at Greece. One of the things that you should notice is the massive wage inflation in the public sector. The public sector has an average salary that is twice the private sector. Then when the crisis occoured it was the private sector and not the public sector who ended up paying. Of course the money used to pay for the public sector dryed up, but no politicans dared to cut salaries by a significant amount for the public sector. Hence they chose to cut massively in health care, across the board cuts in pensions, educations, etc. They were cutting in critical public services for the public when they could have easily balanced the budget by cutting public sector salaries to where they belong.

    I said it before. I don't really mind unions if they help poor people, but when they help rich people get richer, then screw them. Especially when they want tax payers to pay.

    Now, there's an analysis; that has been backed by reputable sources that absolutely refutes (your) perspective:
    What analysis? Your weak point that I only care when they strike? However, I would say the exact same if they weren't striking. I want people to receive market wage.

    (your) being rhetorical. All your side has offered is an opinion that is really based on nothng more than a prejudice as I've described it. I cannot take seriously the opinions of those, who quite frankly, offer up nothing credible, accompanied by any amount of knowledge, that emphatically states that what these teachers / labor is doing that is truly wrong, unAmerican, or harmful in anyway to our society. What (you) do, is shout about the economy. Anti-union people anad company negotiators always use the economy as a driving forcew: "we must remain competitive", is the mantra. Ya'know what? It is about the economy!! Demand side ecnomics have been whittled down take what we are prescribed, by a ubiquitous hand that always seems to know better than we do.

    Well, they don't know better. And for "revolutionary (Tea Party etc) conservative Americans" to sit still and cow tow to that ubiquitous hand; because they have no wherewhithall to do anything about it, and as such are forced to act the part of the good Tory is outrageous. We're doing something about it!! So I suggest that (you) consider your own welfare in this and counting your blessings.
    One question, what do you want? Do you want all professions to negotiate massive wage rises every single year, and by extension US to have high inflation each year. We have tried that out, it didn't work very well. Or do you want some professions to get massive wage rises at the expense of everyone else. Or maybe you believe public sector should catch up with the financial elite, and by extension screw everyone who are not in the financial elite or public sector. Or maybe you think there is a bottomless well of money that we haven't found yet, so everyone can earn 75K USD per year with excellent benefits.

    You are not doing squat, your trickle down economics does not work. Not just for tax reductions for the rich, but also for giving higher wages to public sector. By reducing wages in public sector we directly help the rest of the country who do not have to experience their public services cut, or experience tax increases.
    Last edited by Camlon; 09-13-12 at 10:46 PM.

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    I have provided three different sources (that I can remember here) that validate my assertion with respect to Chicago teacher's salaries. You should know that no floor walker or cashier at walmart is offered $53 K a year or anywhere close to that. What we're talking about here is averages. The anti-union people on this site, as well as the school board spokespeople have asserted that Chicago teachers average $75 K a year. According to the teachers themselves, the independent sources that I have offered as proofs as well as my own theirty years of experience in labor negotiations, tells a different story.
    But the source YOU provided stated clearly that the $53k for a Walmart employee WAS AVERAGE...

    I saw NO source that YOU provided where 'the teachers themselves' told 'a different story'. And I guess your 'own theirty years of experience in labor negotiations' was in CPS which would certainly be substanitave enough for credibility...right?

    As to the rest of your rant...you got pwned and are using the typical diversion tactic...admit it...

    or are you EVER wrong?
    "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure" - 2006 Senator Obama...leadership failure indeed!

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    I have provided three different sources (that I can remember here) that validate my assertion with respect to Chicago teacher's salaries. .

    Actually, no. Your links to "evidence/sources" have been total BS.


    “Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.”

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    Yeah, you consistently particpate in your own economic and social demise. You are exactly the type of person who needs to reread my post and take it to heart.
    No I don't. I consistently participate in a debate about worker equality.


    Why do you not want all workers of the US to be equals? You either wants all workers be union, or you want inequality among workers. Which is it?
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    And none of your "sources" has proved your point. Two of your links were not even relevant. If you actually looked at the search link Walmart, you would see that the job offers are management jobs. That is why they give $53K a year. The average in Walmart in nowhere close to $53K. I and many others have refuted your links and provided proper sources which show that teachers earn $76K and $71K after adjustment. If you want me to take you seriously, please admit you were wrong. Why is it so hard for you?


    That is probably for the better. Either people need to pay for their own pensions, or we need a standard system for all employees. Right now politicians are handing out pensions they will never be able to pay. We need to do something, if we want a pension system when we get older.


    I never cared about Chicago. I am just pointing out my view. Chicago can do whatever they want for my sake, I have no plans to live there. I only care about my home county Norway, New Zealand or any country that I would potentially move to. But I am quite sure if you asked me 1 year ago, I still would say teachers in Chicago earns too much.

    I don't think you get why I support them getting lower wages. It has nothing to do with what I consider a fair wage, I don't care about that. It is not to compensate for my own life. I am happy with my life and don't complain about big government stopping me. Big government can sometimes help me. I don't care that other people earn more than I do. It is about fiscal stability. What I care about is letting wages be at market level, but more importantly I care about fiscal stability. You may not have noticed, but private sector pays for public sector. That means higher wages than necessary in public sector leads to higher taxes with worse public services. Why would I want to benefit a small group at the cost of everyone else?

    Take a look at Greece. One of the things that you should notice is the massive wage inflation in the public sector. The public sector has an average salary that is twice the private sector. Then when the crisis occoured it was the private sector and not the public sector who ended up paying. Of course the money used to pay for the public sector dryed up, but no politicans dared to cut salaries by a significant amount for the public sector. Hence they chose to cut massively in health care, across the board cuts in pensions, educations, etc. They were cutting in critical public services for the public when they could have easily balanced the budget by cutting public sector salaries to where they belong.

    I said it before. I don't really mind unions if they help poor people, but when they help rich people get richer, then screw them. Especially when they want tax payers to pay.


    What analysis? Your weak point that I only care when they strike? However, I would say the exact same if they weren't striking. I want people to receive market wage.



    One question, what do you want? Do you want all professions to negotiate massive wage rises every single year, and by extension US to have high inflation each year. We have tried that out, it didn't work very well. Or do you want some professions to get massive wage rises at the expense of everyone else. Or maybe you believe public sector should catch up with the financial elite, and by extension screw everyone who are not in the financial elite or public sector. Or maybe you think there is a bottomless well of money that we haven't found yet, so everyone can earn 75K USD per year with excellent benefits.

    You are not doing squat, your trickle down economics does not work. Not just for tax reductions for the rich, but also for giving higher wages to public sector. By reducing wages in public sector we directly help the rest of the country who do not have to experience their public services cut, or experience tax increases.

    I read my sources very carefully. Of course those are walmart management jobs: I’ve already talked about that. Secondly, what you’re missing here is the consistent numbers that I keep turning up. That’s how one builds a case you know. All three sources are independent of one another and verify the fact that Chicago teacher’s do not make an average of $75 large a year.

    As for pensions, you obviously don’t have one. So, the military personnel of this country should pay for their own pensions or just have a 401K that is susceptible to ”market fluctuations”; right? The pension system is this country is just fine. The trouble is that the Republicans have been hired to break it up.

    In the US, “wages at market level” are referred to as commensurate for the cost of living. Stock market returns should never set the standard for “competitive wages” as business sees them. Wages are not a market. Wages are for services rendered: services that are weighed by the people performing the service; just like any business if you like. Gas stations do it all the time: go to the four corners in your neighborhood that has at least 3 gas stations and look at the prices . . . Prices are set all the time. This notion that it is somehow unfair or not right for a group of working people to do the same thing is just fallacious. And this notion that municipalities can’t sustain such costs is also fallacious: did you look at the Chicago pay schedule that I posted? Did you notice what managers are making? And, how much do you suppose a PhD or a double master’s is worth? Should perhaps immigrant labor be hired to simply be the adult in the room and read from a book? Now, they’ll work for almost nothing and they won’t form a union either. I don’t know how a union helps rich people get richer; I’ve never heard of that one before. And as I said: these teachers are receiving commensurate wages; the trouble is, the cost of living keeps going up and the only time people in the US even think about a proper education is when they’re forced to.

    What do I want? I want for people who work to be able to negotiate what’s best for them at the time. I want for forces that are against collective bargaining to stop using the courts and the politicians to criminalize people who are negotiating their own welfare. If you have studied American history, then you will know that when American labor was its strongest, we didn’t go socialist, or communist. The sky didn’t fall and American industry grew by leaps and bounds. The whole era created the highest standard of living for the average person in the world. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that what the teachers in Chicago are doing is any way counter productive to the American experience. Also, it’s important to realize that the Chicago contract is all but settled; the union is very happy, all the kids and everybody else will be back in school by Monday or Tuesday; so . . .
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    But the source YOU provided stated clearly that the $53k for a Walmart employee WAS AVERAGE...

    I saw NO source that YOU provided where 'the teachers themselves' told 'a different story'. And I guess your 'own theirty years of experience in labor negotiations' was in CPS which would certainly be substanitave enough for credibility...right?

    As to the rest of your rant...you got pwned and are using the typical diversion tactic...admit it...

    or are you EVER wrong?
    As I said, I have produced consistent numbers that verify my argument.

    CPS? No, I was a Teamster and worked very closely with ILWU and other federations for most of my adult life. Contract negotiations always have a similar dynamic that is predictable. And as I said, the teachers just about have this thing in the bag anyway.

    And yes, when I'm wrong I admit it. How about you?
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Cole View Post
    Actually, no. Your links to "evidence/sources" have been total BS.
    That's because you're not reading.
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    As I said, I have produced consistent numbers that verify my argument.
    Yes, your sources do verify your argument but they are questionable at the very least. Others have posted sources from CPS, IIRC and other .gov/.org type sites that are typically much more reputable. Considering your sources to be valid is like taking golf tips from someone who has never broke 100.

    CPS? No, I was a Teamster and worked very closely with ILWU and other federations for most of my adult life. Contract negotiations always have a similar dynamic that is predictable. And as I said, the teachers just about have this thing in the bag anyway.
    Since your experience is/was in the Teamsters, ILWU and other federations how does this substantiate the ‘tells a different story’ on the $75k a year you asserted in post #588. Or is it your supposition that based on your experience with ‘anti-union people on this site, as well as the school board spokespeople’ and such they MUST be lying about the number?...never mind
    And yes, when I'm wrong I admit it. How about you?
    Sorry, I haven’t noticed…as to me, I willfully admit debating with you is my mistake…carry on…
    "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure" - 2006 Senator Obama...leadership failure indeed!

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    Yes, your sources do verify your argument but they are questionable at the very least. Others have posted sources from CPS, IIRC and other .gov/.org type sites that are typically much more reputable. Considering your sources to be valid is like taking golf tips from someone who has never broke 100.


    Since your experience is/was in the Teamsters, ILWU and other federations how does this substantiate the ‘tells a different story’ on the $75k a year you asserted in post #588. Or is it your supposition that based on your experience with ‘anti-union people on this site, as well as the school board spokespeople’ and such they MUST be lying about the number?...never mind

    Sorry, I haven’t noticed…as to me, I willfully admit debating with you is my mistake…carry on…
    My sources are good; my argument is better, my experience is extstensive and if you can't hack: then bye to you.
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

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