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Thread: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    No, they're trying to get more money for themselves while dodging what is increasingly the standard measurements/assessments. And they're doing it while literally endangering thousands of kids whose schools are not open at all or only from 8-12.
    Your hyperbole is most embarrassing.
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    I'd be interested to learn where you acquired your expert opinion on tenure.
    Here:

    The Looking Glass


    The concept and practice of academic freedom, as recognized presently in Western civilization, date roughly from the 17th century. Although academic freedom existed in universities during the Middle Ages, it signified at that time certain juristic rights, for example, the right of autonomy and of civil or ecclesiastical protection enjoyed by the several guilds that constituted a studium generale, or universitas (COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES). Before the 17th century, intellectual activities at universities were circumscribed largely by theological considerations, and opinions or conclusions that conflicted with religious doctrines were likely to be condemned as heretical. In the late 17th century the work of such men as the English philosophers John Locke and Thomas Hobbes helped pave the way for academic freedom in the modern sense. Their writings demonstrated the need for unlimited inquiry in the sciences and for a general approach to learning unimpeded by preconceptions of any kind. Neither Locke nor Hobbes, however, defended unlimited academic freedom. The German universities of Halle and Göttingen, founded in 1694 and 1737, respectively, were the first European universities to offer broad academic freedom, with few lapses, from their inception. The University of Berlin, founded in 1810, introduced the doctrine of Lehr- und Lernfreiheit ("freedom to teach and study") and helped to strengthen Germany's position as the leader of academic freedom in the 19th century. In the 18th and 19th centuries, universities in Western Europe, Great Britain, and the United States enjoyed increasing academic freedom as acceptance of the experimental methods of the sciences became more widespread and as control of institutions by religious denominations became less rigorous. In Great Britain, however, religious tests for graduation, fellowships, and teaching positions were not abolished until late in the 19th century.
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    Tenure has beena round for a long long time. So for academia; it is right. Folks like yourself have confused it with union contracts. In my view, adn since it exists in instutions like Harvard et al, it is right. If you think that tearing apart a school system is controlling spending, then you're definately on the wrong side of the tracks.
    Being a college professor and having tenure to protect this person for unreasonable firing related to their collegiate academic pursuits, is not the same as a grade school teacher, who should not be using class time to write their thesis for their ph.d, which could be controversial.

    Sorry, equating these two, different professions, is not going to work.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    I support teachers to the fullest. I hate teachers unions though, and despise them to the fullest, just as I do any public sector union.
    Then you don't support teachers.
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    That has nothing to do with the teacher's strike or the school system.


    Its a part of it but I already stated 3 times what Lewis said the issue was nationally. Evaluations and the Hiring back of teachers. Still doesnt change the fact that she went in and talked about healthcare benefits now does it? Which still was Right after she stated they were doing it for the kids. Which we all know the kids are not the priority!

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Okay, that's it. I've been rather following your exchanges for a while here. You quite obviously do not know what you're talking about.
    Here's another source on this numbers: Teaching Positions Salaries in Chicago, IL | Simply Hired
    Average Teaching Positions Salaries
    The average salary for teaching positions jobs in Chicago, IL is $54,000. Average teaching positions salaries can vary greatly due to company, location, industry, experience and benefits.
    So, there ya go.
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    Your hyperbole is most embarrassing.
    I'll take that opinion just as seriously as I've taken your expertise, which comes from having coffee with a couple of your profs.

    As a primer, if you Google "culture of measurement and assessment," which you apparently are unfamiliar with, these are the first two hits, and the first has been cited over 1100 times:

    http://math.arizona.edu/~cemela/engl...eading%202.pdf

    http://library.mpib-berlin.mpg.de/toc/z2007_216.pdf

    If you don't realize that kids left unsupervised in Chicago are in danger, then maybe you're unfamiliar with that city. That's not hyperbole.

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Being a college professor and having tenure to protect this person for unreasonable firing related to their collegiate academic pursuits, is not the same as a grade school teacher, who should not be using class time to write their thesis for their ph.d, which could be controversial.

    Sorry, equating these two, different professions, is not going to work.
    Again: you have no idea what you're talking about.
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    Again: you have no idea what you're talking about.
    So schools teachers are not just employed to teach, but to also write, provide research and opinion on potentially controversial subjects?
    Sorry, but your opinion just doesn't line up with reality.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    You just boiled down the performance of teachers down to graduation rate. That is one of the most epic fails of an argument that I have ever seen in my life. That would be like blaming the huge spike in violence in Chicago on low performing police officers or blaming the collapse of the auto industry on car salesmen. For ****'s sake people, a single factor like graduation rates does not measure the quality of teacher performance. It's that kind of simplistic evaluation that teachers are fighting against in Chicago.

    I'm sorry MTP. I know you're a intelligent guy, but I cannot take these sorts of analyses.
    What else is the purpose of going to school other than to graduate? We have to have measurables. Standardized testing, literacy rates, etc are good measurables to use. Graduation rate, IMO, is the best measurable to use. Its the entire focus and goal of going to school to begin with. It is statistically proven that not graduating high school leads to poverty, crime, etc. If you think I'm advocating for lax standards to make rates higher, you are mistaken. That's not my point at all. My point is that these teachers can't claim they are teaching in a tougher area than New York or Houston. Teachers in those states face the same hurdles and challenges. I'd say the teachers in Houston have it harder because they have a language barrier to deal with as well due to a larger Hispanic population. But somehow, someway, they make it happen. That Chicago teachers are asking for higher percentage pay raises than virtually anyone in the country (including Federal employees), to drop evaluation standards, and then mask it to look like they're doing it for the kids is despicable. If you don't believe grad rate is a good measurable, what is?
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
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