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Thread: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

  1. #131
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    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Here was your statement
    I know what I said.


    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    that is an allegation of fact based on evidence which you have not provided. I would very much like to see that evidence.
    The Family and Student Achievement | RAND

    What Teacher Characteristics Affect Student Achievement? Findings from Los Angeles Public Schools | RAND

    So tell me, why are we paying these teachers so much?
    If teachers are the largest factor in student achievement, then these teachers are clearly failing.
    If they are not, then why should we be paying them so much?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I know what I said.




    The Family and Student Achievement | RAND

    What Teacher Characteristics Affect Student Achievement? Findings from Los Angeles Public Schools | RAND

    So tell me, why are we paying these teachers so much?
    If teachers are the largest factor in student achievement, then these teachers are clearly failing.
    If they are not, then why should we be paying them so much?
    I see nothing in those "studies" which indicates that teachers have little or "marginal impact " (to use your word) on a students education.

    I have no idea what RAND is or how they do their 'studies' but I would refer you to this:

    National Board for Professional Teaching Standards: Redefining Teacher Quality

    Research has shown that the single most influential school-based factor affecting student achievement is teacher quality1. Therefore, the most important thing that schools and policymakers can do is to ensure that every student has a highly accomplished teacher.
    The study used to make this statement is cited.
    Last edited by haymarket; 09-10-12 at 08:32 PM.
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  3. #133
    Educator Schutzengel's Avatar
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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Here was your statement



    that is an allegation of fact based on evidence which you have not provided. I would very much like to see that evidence.
    Chicago has a nearly 40% drop out rate... you mean teachers can't motivate even 2/3rds of thier students to complete their high school diploma?

    As a college professor I find this sad.
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  4. #134
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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I see nothing in those "studies" which indicates that teachers have little or "marginal impact " (to use your word) on a students education.

    I have no idea what RAND is or how they do their 'studies' but I would refer you to this:

    National Board for Professional Teaching Standards: Redefining Teacher Quality
    Ok, so I am wrong.
    Now tell me, with teachers having such a large contribution to student achievement, why do these Chicago teachers deserve raises, when they are failing?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  5. #135
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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Ok, so I am wrong.
    Now tell me, with teachers having such a large contribution to student achievement, why do these Chicago teachers deserve raises, when they are failing?
    What evidence do you have that the teachers are failing?
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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I thought that was clear. No matter where the kid goes, its still the same kid operating years behind with the same skill levels. Changing the building where he goes does nothing to change that reality.
    Yes, the poor child has indeed suffered a serious setback by such incompetent schooling. Had his parents had the choice to patronize their choice of provider from the very start, perhaps the child would not have been damaged so severely. But even at this late stage, it would still be better if the parents could cancel their current contract and switch to a more effective school, in order to try to remediate the damage as best as possible.

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Yes, the poor child has indeed suffered a serious setback by such incompetent schooling. Had his parents had the choice to patronize their choice of provider from the very start, perhaps the child would not have been damaged so severely. But even at this late stage, it would still be better if the parents could cancel their current contract and switch to a more effective school, in order to try to remediate the damage as best as possible.
    I have personally toured scores of charter schools, private schools and public schools. ALL I have seen use the factory assembly line system.

    I am sure that one could find exclusive private academies charging 20K or more per year to avoid the assembly line - at least in part but I have never been in one nor do I know of any that fits what needs to be done.
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  8. #138
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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    What evidence do you have that the teachers are failing?
    By what measure are they succeeding, lol?
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    By what measure are they succeeding, lol?
    Is that after the counting of the Custodian's Union and the Food Service Workers Union?

  10. #140
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    Re: Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

    I notice that the usual ardent proponents of unions are not present in this thread. I find their absence speaks far more than they every could with mere words, were they to participate here.

    Let no one, NO ONE, say that a teacher's job is easy, first and foremost. You think it's easy, I call BS, and say you've simply never done it before. It's only easy if you don't care, and have no pride. I've taught, but not in a classroom like at school...but for the Boy Scouts. It's not easy.

    Let no one, NO ONE, say that teachers don't care about their students. I simply don't believe that's true. I know too many teachers, in my personal life, to make such a claim, and actually believe.

    Let ANYONE say, however, that a teacher's UNION...cares not one tiny shred about a student, any student, nor for the people paying the salaries of the union members. This is the part where the collective truly does bring out the absolute worst in otherwise good people. Where the mob turns good men and women into little more thanb savages, metaphorically speaking.

    When you take a job, you have several things on the table. First and foremost, do you actually WANT the job? Is it something you want to do? For most of us, going to work is only a little better than going to, say, the dentist. At least dental visits get over with fairly quickly, if not always painless, lol. In that light, when we take these jobs that we don't REALLY want, we use the item on the table to mitigate it. Pay. Generally, unless I think a job is gonna be something special, I set a number in my head for what I feel I can get, vs what I need, etc, and then go for that number. Employer fails to hit that number? No loss, I stay where I am, job wise. (unemployed people is an entirely different debate) What I'm trying to say, in a roundabout way is, you take a job because you need one, but you mitigate this need with trying to find one you like, vs also paying the bills, or getting payed more for something you don't like.

    Teachers either like their jobs or they don't. They either agree to the pay they bargained for upon being hired, or they don't, and don't get hired. Follow me? When a company is not doing well ( and THIS company is currently NOT doing very well), can an employee expect to get raises? Not really, not unless you are in a position of extreme power and influence. Teachers are not, and should not be...the tax payer is, and should be.

    Are the parents of these kids going to be re-embursed for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

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