• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

Me? My "pay" was docked when Governor Quinn raised my state income tax by 67%. 'Course teacher pensions don't count. They're state-tax free. So it doesn't come of their pockets. My "pay" was docked last year when my real estate tax bill went up by 15%.

Teachers pay the same income taxes you do. Why should they have to shoulder an additional share of the state's financial problems on top of the share that everybody else takes on?

Regardless, your state income tax rate is only 5%... World's tiniest violin...
 
Yeah, it is. You spend all kinds of time and money getting a bs and usually a master's degree in education that is pretty much useless in other fields, you have a very specific kind of experience that isn't really useful in very many other fields. Somebody with a master's degree and 25 years of experience might find that their best option to transfer into another field would be to work in a Starbucks or whatever.

Thankfully, the trend is against education degrees and a shift toward Bachelors of Arts or Science degrees. This is a "win." If you have a legit degree and training in, say, math, you do have other career avenues. Agreed that if all you have to offer is pedagogical theory, you may be screwed. Too bad, and welcome to reality.

So let's cut to the chase and talk about experience? Have you ever worked in a classroom? Or are you a well-intentioned theorist?
 
Teachers pay the same income taxes you do. Why should they have to shoulder an additional share of the state's financial problems on top of the share that everybody else takes on?

Regardless, your state income tax rate is only 5%... World's tiniest violin...

No, they do not. Teachers do not pay state income tax on their pensions.
 
No, they do not. Teachers do not pay state income tax on their pensions.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think IL just doesn't tax any pensions. It isn't like some exception for teachers, they just only apply the state's income tax to wages, right?
 
Threw themselves on our mercy. There are lines around the block twice to be a teacher in the Chicago area. There is no shortage of teachers willing to take on the burdensome low-paying jobs that are teachers today. I wonder why that is? Could it be they're not low-paying? Nope. Can't be that. Could it be that it's not burdensome? Nope. Can't we that. Could it be that moms find it a wonderful way to work and raise a family? Nope. Can't be that.

So. Why then?

Me? My "pay" was docked when Governor Quinn raised my state income tax by 67%. 'Course teacher pensions don't count. They're state-tax free. So it doesn't come of their pockets. My "pay" was docked last year when my real estate tax bill went up by 15%, 70% of which goes towards schools.

My next-door neighbor, on the other hand, had his pay docked when he was laid off eight months ago. The guy across the street had his pay docked when he was forced to take a 5% pay cut or get a new job.

There's plenty of people sacrificing each and every day. That the Chicago Teachers' Union finds 16% over four years unacceptable is ludicrous. That they absolutely refuse to implement (in a trial program) evaluations that they themselves had a part in creating is ludicrous. That they absolutely reject merit pay is ludicrous.

But. It's all for the children.

Oh, yes. All for the kiddos. :roll:
 
So let's cut to the chase and talk about experience? Have you ever worked in a classroom? Or are you a well-intentioned theorist?

I've never been a teacher. I ran a program that worked with kids on probation for a while and spent maybe 10 hours a week in the schools, but that's about it. My parents were both teachers though. Why?
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think IL just doesn't tax any pensions. It isn't like some exception for teachers, they just only apply the state's income tax to wages, right?

They pretty much tax all income except pensions. Teachers and other public sector employees get the largest bump from that because, of course, they have the largest pensions. My mom doesn't pay Illinois state taxes on her $13,000 Social Security she receives. My co-worker's wife doesn't pay Illinois state taxes on the $130,000 Illinois teacher's pension she receives either.
 
I've never been a teacher. I ran a program that worked with kids on probation for a while and spent maybe 10 hours a week in the schools, but that's about it. My parents were both teachers though. Why?

Because you're only a theorist.
 
They pretty much tax all income except pensions. Teachers and other public sector employees get the largest bump from that because, of course, they have the largest pensions. My mom doesn't pay Illinois state taxes on her $13,000 Social Security she receives. My co-worker's wife doesn't pay Illinois state taxes on the $130,000 Illinois teacher's pension she receives either.

That isn't something special for teachers or something. If you work for GM and get a pension, that isn't taxed in IL either.
 
And as another issue, do "caring professions"--teachers, nurses, EMS's, and others--have a special obligation that, say, accountants and welders, don't have? What happens when "essential services" aren't provided? Do muncipal codes/job descriptions do enough to spell out the special obligations that some professions do have? Is it okay for all of a city's firefighters or teachers or cops to walk off the job the way accountants and welders do?

There IS a special obligation. I can only speak on behalf of firefighters, but it is against our oath to abandon the people we serve... EVER. We just don't do it. There have been many instances where entire departments have been shut down or barred by local governments from performing their duties in certain jurisdictions for political or budgetary reasons, but when the calls came in, those firemen still showed up in their civilian vehicles, ready to protect and serve... for no money.

There has only been one mass Fire Department strike in the US. It is an embarrassing stain in the history of our profession, a gross show of negligence which set FD's back horribly in terms of public trust for a long time. Incidentally, anyone wanna guess where it happened? Thaaaaaat's right. In Chicago.
 
The vermin exploiting children

There is nothing lower than somebody who insults teachers. I mean, really, school teachers. You hate school teachers? If you did poorly in school, that was your fault, not your teacher's fault. Get over it already.
 
There IS a special obligation. I can only speak on behalf of firefighters, but it is against our oath to abandon the people we serve... EVER. We just don't do it. There have been many instances where entire departments have been shut down or barred by local governments from performing their duties in certain jurisdictions for political or budgetary reasons, but when the calls came in, those firemen still showed up in their civilian vehicles, ready to protect and serve... for no money.

There has only been one mass Fire Department strike in the US. It is an embarrassing stain in the history of our profession, a gross show of negligence which set FD's back horribly in terms of public trust for a long time. Incidentally, anyone wanna guess where it happened? Thaaaaaat's right. In Chicago.

Emergency services and whatnot usually make a trade. They give up their right to collective bargaining in exchange for other mechanisms designed to give them a more level playing field when negotiating compensation. For example, in many states, emergency workers get several elected seats on the committees that decide compensation issues. Teachers don't have anything like that, so this is their only way to stand up for themselves.
 
There is nothing lower than somebody who insults teachers. I mean, really, school teachers. You hate school teachers? If you did poorly in school, that was your fault, not your teacher's fault. Get over it already.

What makes insulting teachers lower than insulting anyone else?
 
What makes insulting teachers lower than insulting anyone else?

That they are people who have made the commitment to sacrifice their career possibilities to the noble goal of educating our children. Duh. It's like insulting veterans or nuns or something. Just pathetic.
 
Sacrifice their career possibilities? Oh please, they do nothing more than most parents should be doing. And considering the dropout rate and kids skill in math and reading, they havent really sacrificed anything anyone else hasnt for their occupation.

Part of the problem with our education is people putting teachers on pedastals.

I guess if kids were actually graduating with an education I might think different.
 
That they are people who have made the commitment to sacrifice their career possibilities to the noble goal of educating our children. Duh. It's like insulting veterans or nuns or something. Just pathetic.

Those that can't make it in the real world, teach. Sorry, but teachers are normally not people you'd want to take after. This strike proves that.
 
Yeah, I think it is about the money. And good for them. Again, teachers are a radically undervalued and underpaid profession. It is an intellectually and emotionally demanding jobs. It is one of the most important jobs in our society. It requires far more education than the typical job to get. And yet we pay for it like we pay for managing a Starbucks. It is a travesty and I am glad that these folks are willing to take the risks and accept the costs of fighting to correct that.

Chicago union teachers are making an average of $46 an hour. And generating some of the worse education results in the nation. They are striking for more pay, more benefits, and more job security.

As a whole, just don't think the public sympathy is going to be out there for them if this drags on at all.....
 
Well yesterday Emanuel's front man had to get up and walkout.
walk.gif
This Lewis and the Union.....stated Nationally the sticking point was on the Evaluations. Then all day yesterday she did was argue for more healthcare benefits and then about other issue concerning School facilities.
wtf20.gif


I thought it was about the kids!
homework.gif
 
Last edited:
Our first mistake was assuming that all children could be educated in the traditional book-classroom-teacher model. The results we are getting from that ought to tell us that our assumption was wrong. A lot of kids need a different model. Maybe they should be learning a trade or working as an apprentice or something.

On the other hand, back in my day teachers ruled their classes with iron hands. They had unlimited credibility with the parents and with the administrators. They tended to get satisfactory results from even the most unlikely students, such as myself.:mrgreen: On the whole I prefer this approach, but it may not even be possible anymore, in a day when parents call their lawyer when junior flunks a test. That is to say not possible in public schools. In private schools the situation is different.
 
Maggie - you strike me as a basically fair person. Do you think it is proper that if one is asked to perform substantially more labor, than one is appropriately compensated for that increase in work?
Sure, but only if your compensation is fair in the first place. Think about hourly wages. On average a teacher in Illinois work 5.5 hours and earn 71000 per year. Yes, they do some work after school, but they also got more vacation so I can still use the number of hours.

That means they earn 50 USD per hour and that does not include their excellent benefits. That wage is simply too high for the government to afford, and they need to be cut. There is simply no money, so if they do not cut in salaries, then they need to cut somewhere else which will hurt school performance. But I want to know, why do the left defend teachers who earn 50 USD per hour? How about defending the ones who earn 8 USD per hour, and is paying the teachers through indirect taxes?

Wages should be set by the market. The easy way to set the wage is to allow firing of teachers. There are plenty of young people who would love to become a teacher for those kind of wages. Why not give them a chance, are they worth less?
 
Last edited:
The 8th grade achievement scores and drop out rate are pretty bad.

The quality of the education provided in Chicago has been poor for a long time. If the strike drags out for any length of time the coverage and reporting will tend to get more granular. The fact that Arne Duncan ran the show in Chicago from 2001-2009 is an item which hasn't gotten much if any attention to this point. (He left to become Obama's Secretary of Education.)

Am thinking the Obama campaign would really like to see this strike get resolved for multiple political reasons....
 
Back
Top Bottom