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Thread: China's president says infrastructure development key to recovery

  1. #21
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    Re: China's president says infrastructure development key to recovery

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Sure it would. Things get old and decay and if the US doesn't spend on fixing and replacing infrastructure then it will fall into decay and then China will be brand new and the US will be crumbling and falling apart from within.

    It's the construction industry that needs the boost because that is where most of the jobs were before the economy tanked. So it kinda makes sense to fund infrastructure projects to create jobs since it invovles construction.
    But that wasnt my point though. Building a road or a bridge between two communities where one does not now exist facilitates commerce between those two communities--it stimulates economic activity beyond the mere hiring of men for the project. Repaving an existing road employs men for the short term but provides no long term economic benefit. Things that 'worked' in the 1930's wont work the same today. There are no new dams to build, no new interstates, just repair of the old ones.

    Plus, as MarineTpartier points out, we have to borrow money and add to our debt to finance such things, China does not. Raising taxes as you suggest, only takes money from the left hand and puts it in the right hand.

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    Re: China's president says infrastructure development key to recovery

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    But that wasnt my point though. Building a road or a bridge between two communities where one does not now exist facilitates commerce between those two communities--it stimulates economic activity beyond the mere hiring of men for the project
    yes.... and no. building a 6 lane highway between empty cities and goat villages (as China is looking at) doesn't really net stimulate economic activity.

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    Re: China's president says infrastructure development key to recovery

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post



    1. Defense spending is currently at a historical low, and has already been slashed to levels that the Presidents' own administration has labled "dangerous".
    2. Raising tax rates won't increase revenue.
    Revenue comes from taxes. So any increase in taxes on the wealthy is going to increase revenue. Thats just basic logic and arithmetic.

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    Re: China's president says infrastructure development key to recovery

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Revenue comes from taxes. So any increase in taxes on the wealthy is going to increase revenue. Thats just basic logic and arithmetic.
    Unfortunately that is not correct.





    Marginal rates actually have a small effect on revenue. What does have large direct impact is GDP growth and the relative size of government. Because government does not tax itself the same way that it taxes corporations and workers, the larger the share of GDP government takes, the less is available for tax-farming.




    If you want to increase revenues, therefore, you need strong pro-Growth policies that at the same time reduce the Federal Government relative to GDP.
    Last edited by cpwill; 09-10-12 at 07:25 AM.

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    Re: China's president says infrastructure development key to recovery

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    But that wasnt my point though. Building a road or a bridge between two communities where one does not now exist facilitates commerce between those two communities--it stimulates economic activity beyond the mere hiring of men for the project. Repaving an existing road employs men for the short term but provides no long term economic benefit. Things that 'worked' in the 1930's wont work the same today. There are no new dams to build, no new interstates, just repair of the old ones.

    Plus, as MarineTpartier points out, we have to borrow money and add to our debt to finance such things, China does not. Raising taxes as you suggest, only takes money from the left hand and puts it in the right hand.
    Yes, I see your point now. However, communitees in decay don't stimulate economic activity, either. Money has to spent to upgrade, modernize and maintain so the businesses that do exist can continue to exist. And too, there are projects that can take decades such as upgrading the electrical grid and preparing for global warming and investing in clean energy and cleaning up all the environmental damage.

    Spending is stimulating to the economy no matter where it comes from and if private business is unable or unwilling to invest, then the government has to or the economy will back into a recession. Then what?

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    Re: China's president says infrastructure development key to recovery

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Unfortunately that is not correct.



    Thanks, for showing that chart because it shows that the more taxes the rich paid, the more revenue there was and backs up what I said, revenues come from taxes.





    Marginal rates actually have a small effect on revenue. What does have large direct impact is GDP growth and the relative size of government. Because government does not tax itself the same way that it taxes corporations and workers, the larger the share of GDP government takes, the less is available for tax-farming.




    If you want to increase revenues, therefore, you need strong pro-Growth policies that at the same time reduce the Federal Government relative to GDP.
    Interesting, the chart shows spending increased during Republican presidencies and went down during Democrat presidencies. Also worth noting is that revenue decreased under Republican presidencies largely due to tax cuts for the wealthy. Alan Greenspan warned congress clear back in 2004 that the Bush tax cuts would only work if they cut spending....instead congress increased it and created a $12 trillion debt. That would highly suggest that the wealthy's taxes need to be raised back up and spending decreased back to the level it was in the 1990s to help create an equilibrium in the revenue to spending ratio.

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    Re: China's president says infrastructure development key to recovery

    Quote Originally Posted by frogloe View Post
    Obama proposed $140 billion in spending on infrastructure about a year ago. It was Paul Ryan and his budget plans that attempted to halt this action. But continue to drone on about how Obama wants to redistribute wealth and such. In fact, why don't you just copy paste that quote to every thread? Save yourself the time of typing, you're going to sound like a broken record no matter how you decide to spice it up.
    Are you talking about the jobs bill?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: China's president says infrastructure development key to recovery

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    Infrastructure helps a place like China because China is still a developing country. Many places are not connected by quality roads, bridges, electricity, dams, sewers, etc. Infrastructure spending in China actually improves and facilitates commerce and economic activity. The US is a developed country where infrastructure spending only repairs what is already there and does nothing to facilitate economic activity. So what works for them wont do much for us.
    our electrical grid is outdated, i believe i read somewhere that a full 30-50% of our bridges are in need of major repairs, we have underspent on our roads for years now, just trying to patch them, when many need to be repaved.......infrastructure is something we should be pouring money into...

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    Re: China's president says infrastructure development key to recovery

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    With the money we save on defense spending and raising the capital gains tax on the wealthy and closing the loopholes so corporations have to pay taxes, too.
    I must have missed when that actually happened. Not to sound smarmy towards you, but the idea that our gov't can save money somewhere has become at minimum a fallacy and at most a legitimate subject for a sitcom. I agree with you on the defense spending, notsamuch on the capital gains tax and loopholes. I would rather see a simplified tax system similar to the one in Ryan's budget. I do agree with you on the defense spending though. I would even take a hit on my retirement benefits if I knew that it would go to a good cause. But then, that would redirect us to the second sentence of this post.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: China's president says infrastructure development key to recovery

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Thanks, for showing that chart because it shows that the more taxes the rich paid, the more revenue there was and backs up what I said, revenues come from taxes.



    Debbie Wasserman Schultz, is that you???



    The chart demonstrates that wild swings in the top marginal rates have not produced swings in revenue. But "deny all reality" is a new tactic for you


    Interesting, the chart shows spending increased during Republican presidencies and went down during Democrat presidencies.
    Yup. Gosh if only there was a conservative movement dedicated to primarying out the Republicans who spent like that.... surely you would support such an endevour, am I right?

    Also worth noting is that revenue decreased under Republican presidencies largely due to tax cuts for the wealthy.
    That is incorrect on two levels: 1. Republican Presidency revenue decreases were driven the same thing revenue is consistently driven by: GDP and relative size of government. When you see dips on that top chart, generally you are seeing the effect of a recession, not a tax cut. In fact you will notice that the average revenue rate is higher in the period with the lower top marginal rates.

    2. even if you score statically, it is the middle class tax cuts that cost us the real money - $3T v $800bn

    gotta run



    Alan Greenspan warned congress clear back in 2004 that the Bush tax cuts would only work if they cut spending....instead congress increased it and created a $12 trillion debt. That would highly suggest that the wealthy's taxes need to be raised back up and spending decreased back to the level it was in the 1990s to help create an equilibrium in the revenue to spending ratio.

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