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Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 presidential

Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

Mason-

My bad, now please address the state laws I posted about cops, IDs, and when they can require you produce them.

I can't address individual laws from different staers.

I am not sure what your point is. If a police officer has contact with you, he is going to ask you to identify yourself. I would think most would ask for proof of identity, mainly because they deal with the worst the country has to offer and they usually lie.

State law or not, the officer is going to request ID, however your point was that if the feds issued id, then the country would turn into a police state even more than it is now.

Please explain why.
 
Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

You dodged the law. it is simple, there is no requirement for a Citizen to show ID- name and address only.

You need to look at the law, not what cops attempt to get away with in a routine traffic stop, they ask for a license because you need one to legally drive.

So yes If I am walking in the Mall, as if I ever would but lets say I am. IF I am wandering in the Mall doing nothing in particular law enforcement can't just walk up and demand an ID. They may TRY that but I am not required to produce an ID. Yes I maybe lying, but without probable cause to warrant having my name the police never should have asked for it.

THAT is the difference between a Police State and our nation at the moment.

But do fact check your own state and the 'requirement' to produce a picture ID.
 
Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

A solution in search of a problem, but a great way to disenfranchise the poor and minorities. Which, of course, is the point. Republicans don't even pretend otherwise.

Tired old talking point. In every case that I have heard about ID laws being voted into law the states have provided a way to get that ID free. Can't exactly use this reasoning when you don't need a single penny to get that ID huh?
 
Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

Who knows why they filled out a voter registration form. Perhaps when they were getting their photo ID the form was in a pile of paper work and not knowing any better, they just filled out everything that was put in front of them.

Being registered and actually voting are two separate, independent actions.

What "pile of paperwork"? When I went to get my license the only thing I had to fill out was the test to get the license and the form saying that I agree to have insurance on my car.

Besides, ignorance is not an excuse that is allowed in a court of law.

I don't know the expense, but easily is the key, if someone's purpose is to commit fraud under penalty of the law.

Last I heard a fake ID cost $300.

The National Voter Registration Act of 1993 (NVRA) (42 U.S.C. § 1973gg), also known as The Motor Voter Act, was signed into effect by United States President Bill Clinton on May 20, 1993, however, compliance did not become mandatory until 1995. The legislation required state governments to allow for registration when a qualifying voter applied for or renewed their driver's license or applied for social services.

And what you fail to mention is that the States can establish procedures to register so long as they comply with the law. The voter registration must be available with the license due to the Motor Voter Act yes, and it is. However that does not mean that they have to give it to you unless you ask for it. Just a little loophole that you should know about before continueing this line of discussion. ;)

Implied? He pretty much said what I said - it is so small that it's statistically nil.

There is a difference between what he said and what you said. But I won't argue that inane point. And the only reason that it is "statistically nil" is for a couple of reasons. One is that it is damn near impossible to catch a person commiting voter fraud unless it is done by someone counting the votes or is part of the staff. Two, no one has really studied it to PUT statistics to it.

And the most important reason that those against these laws love to do is that they ONLY look at convictions and refuse to use common sense. Probably because they know damn well that its damn near impossible to catch someone stuffing the ballot boxes.
 
Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

It makes sense, in your opinion, to prevent thousands of legitimate voters from casting ballots, in order to catch, in all probability, ZERO illegitimate voters? Could you explain your logic?

Kinda like gun control. eh?
 
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Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

Yet another reason for voter ID laws.

"Raleigh-based group devoted to reducing the potential for voter fraud presented the N.C. Board of Elections on Friday with a list of nearly 30,000 names of dead people statewide who are still registered to vote."

The Voter Integrity Project compiled the list after obtaining death records from the state Department of Public Health from 2002 to March 31 and comparing them to the voter rolls.



NC group finds thousands of deceased people still registered to vote | NBC17.com
 
Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

Yet another reason for voter ID laws.

"Raleigh-based group devoted to reducing the potential for voter fraud presented the N.C. Board of Elections on Friday with a list of nearly 30,000 names of dead people statewide who are still registered to vote."

The Voter Integrity Project compiled the list after obtaining death records from the state Department of Public Health from 2002 to March 31 and comparing them to the voter rolls.



NC group finds thousands of deceased people still registered to vote | NBC17.com

Inane dismissal in 3...2...1...
 
Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

Yet another reason for voter ID laws.

"Raleigh-based group devoted to reducing the potential for voter fraud presented the N.C. Board of Elections on Friday with a list of nearly 30,000 names of dead people statewide who are still registered to vote."

The Voter Integrity Project compiled the list after obtaining death records from the state Department of Public Health from 2002 to March 31 and comparing them to the voter rolls.



NC group finds thousands of deceased people still registered to vote | NBC17.com


Which part of the voter ID law would require the agencies to work together to verify the lists? Or assuming they are required to, why don't they address that problem? Because it seems to me that voter ID laws wouldn't fix ineffective intra-governmental communication.

Ever hear of fake ID?
 
Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

Kal'Stang said:
What "pile of paperwork"? When I went to get my license the only thing I had to fill out was the test to get the license and the form saying that I agree to have insurance on my car.
So, are you saying that if it doesn't happen to you it doesn't happen?

Besides, we're talking about non-citizens, so unless you're a non-citizen, their situation would be a little different.
Kal'Stang said:
Besides, ignorance is not an excuse that is allowed in a court of law.
We're in a court of law now?

Kal'Stang said:
Last I heard a fake ID cost $300.
Is $300 the financial limit if someone was determined to circumvent the law?

How about a group discount? LOL!

Kal'Stang said:
And what you fail to mention is that the States can establish procedures to register so long as they comply with the law. The voter registration must be available with the license due to the Motor Voter Act yes, and it is. However that does not mean that they have to give it to you unless you ask for it. Just a little loophole that you should know about before continueing this line of discussion.
Is there an incentive in there somewhere to not give out voter registration cards when you apply for or renew your license? They're post card sized and in a box by the thousands at the clerk's fingertips. It would be more plausible to just give one out to everyone (they can always say "I don't need one thanks") rather than try and circumvent the law using a 'loophole' for no reason whatsoever.

Kal'Stang said:
There is a difference between what he said and what you said. But I won't argue that inane point. And the only reason that it is "statistically nil" is for a couple of reasons. One is that it is damn near impossible to catch a person commiting voter fraud unless it is done by someone counting the votes or is part of the staff.
How do you figure that it's "damn near impossible to catch a person commiting voter fraud"? Haven't various states produced voter registration lists with dead people and/or non-citizens on them? If they have those people identified from the voter registration rolls, that means they have their names, addresses and voter precincts identified. The next step should be obvious and rather simple. Check the actual voter roster at the poll against the list they have already compiled.

They haven't taken that next step - or they have and didn't find anything, so they charge on ahead anyway, the heck with the facts.

Kal'Stang said:
Two, no one has really studied it to PUT statistics to it.
With the deep pockets of the Koch brothers, and the desire to quash liberals I guarantee that it's been studied and if they had of found something it would've been plastered everywhere

Kal'Stang said:
And the most important reason that those against these laws love to do is that they ONLY look at convictions and refuse to use common sense.
And the most important reason that voter obstructionist love to use ONLY allegations is that's all they have and refuse the reality that there's nothing there.
Kal'Stang said:
Probably because they know damn well that its damn near impossible to catch someone stuffing the ballot boxes.
Or there is no one stuffing the ballot box.

And further, if it's impossible to catch someone now, how will one know that photo voter ID has or hasn't worked? Or that there has been voter fraud using a fake photo ID?
 
Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

Yet another reason for voter ID laws.

"Raleigh-based group devoted to reducing the potential for voter fraud presented the N.C. Board of Elections on Friday with a list of nearly 30,000 names of dead people statewide who are still registered to vote."

The Voter Integrity Project compiled the list after obtaining death records from the state Department of Public Health from 2002 to March 31 and comparing them to the voter rolls.



NC group finds thousands of deceased people still registered to vote | NBC17.com


Article said:
The group says it doesn’t know how many of the 30,000 names were actually used to vote illegally, yet.
Funny how that always seems to pop up in the last paragraph of an article.
Article said:
The next step is volunteers will match names with voting records.
Alright, finally someone is listening to me.

This will be interesting to see if they find anything, in which case there will be headlines everywhere.

-Or-

If they find nothing, will that also be reported or will it die in silence, like the allegations that fizzle?
 
Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

So, are you saying that if it doesn't happen to you it doesn't happen?

It was an example.

Besides, we're talking about non-citizens, so unless you're a non-citizen, their situation would be a little different.

Legal non-citizens get treated the same in the DMV so whats your point?

We're in a court of law now?

In case you didn't know it but registering to vote just by itself is also illegal if you are not a citizen. Not just voting.

Is $300 the financial limit if someone was determined to circumvent the law?

How about a group discount? LOL!

I doubt you get group discounts from someone making fake ID's. The point was to show that while fake ID's might be easy to make they are not cheap to get. Which makes them hard to get.

Is there an incentive in there somewhere to not give out voter registration cards when you apply for or renew your license? They're post card sized and in a box by the thousands at the clerk's fingertips. It would be more plausible to just give one out to everyone (they can always say "I don't need one thanks") rather than try and circumvent the law using a 'loophole' for no reason whatsoever.

What incentive is there to give it out? IE They prolly are not given out due to simple lazyness.

How do you figure that it's "damn near impossible to catch a person commiting voter fraud"? Haven't various states produced voter registration lists with dead people and/or non-citizens on them? If they have those people identified from the voter registration rolls, that means they have their names, addresses and voter precincts identified. The next step should be obvious and rather simple. Check the actual voter roster at the poll against the list they have already compiled.

There is a big difference between scouring for registered voters and scouring to see if those people actually voted. The right to privacy prevents one and not the other..can you figure out which one?

With the deep pockets of the Koch brothers, and the desire to quash liberals I guarantee that it's been studied and if they had of found something it would've been plastered everywhere

Not if they feared that it would be used against themselves also. Once someone opens up that can of worms then both sides will be hurt as I'm certain that both sides take advantage of this.

And further, if it's impossible to catch someone now, how will one know that photo voter ID has or hasn't worked? Or that there has been voter fraud using a fake photo ID?

In order to get state issued ID for voting you have to show that you are a citizen of the US. A non-citizen could not come up with this proof.

As for the fake ID you are right..there are those that will use fake ID's and still get away with voter fraud. No system is 100% effective. If it was then there would be no murders, rapes, thefts etc etc. Voter ID's is only one link in a chain to prevent fraud and it should be treated as such. It should never be treated as an end all be all fool proof system.
 
Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

Tired old talking point. In every case that I have heard about ID laws being voted into law the states have provided a way to get that ID free. Can't exactly use this reasoning when you don't need a single penny to get that ID huh?


But it costs money to drive to the office to get the ID and time is money too. The ime to wait in line is valuable.

Even when the ID is free the Democrats find a different reason to oppose it.
 
Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

Kal'Stang said:
Legal non-citizens get treated the same in the DMV so whats your point?
More paperwork. We were talking about the paperwork shuffle.
Kal'Stang said:
In case you didn't know it but registering to vote just by itself is also illegal if you are not a citizen. Not just voting.
Did anyone say any different? We were talking here, in this forum, about registration, not how it would play out in a court of law.
Kal'Stang said:
I doubt you get group discounts from someone making fake ID's. The point was to show that while fake ID's might be easy to make they are not cheap to get. Which makes them hard to get.
My point was, what would be the financial limit that would deter someone from committing voter fraud.

The group rate was just a joke towards the conspiracy theory of busing in the number of fraudulent votes it would take to influence an election.
Kal'Stang said:
What incentive is there to give it out? IE They prolly are not given out due to simple lazyness.
I would say that it be more prudent to give them out to everyone rather than risk the allegation of circumventing federal law.
Kal'Stang said:
There is a big difference between scouring for registered voters and scouring to see if those people actually voted. The right to privacy prevents one and not the other..can you figure out which one?
LOL! Well you're going to have to help me out on this one. What is the difference, privacy wise, of a list of registered voters and a list of those who actually voted?

In fact, you quoted a post (#209) that contained an article where a group in NC plans to do just that.
Article said:
The group says it doesn’t know how many of the 30,000 names were actually used to vote illegally, yet. The next step is volunteers will match names with voting records.
I've asked in this thread, and others, why someone hasn't done exactly that before.

As a supporter of making voting easier and more accessible to all of our citizens, I've noted this article and if the Voter Integrity Project results aren't published in a reasonable time period, I'll ask what happened. I'll be interested in the results, no matter which way they turn out.

Kal'Stang said:
Not if they feared that it would be used against themselves also.
I don't think the Koch brothers really care what the liberals, or anyone for that matter, thinks of them. These are the guys whose political actions resulted in the term 'Swift Boating'.


Kal'Stang said:
In order to get state issued ID for voting you have to show that you are a citizen of the US. A non-citizen could not come up with this proof.
Non-citizens can get approved photo ID, legally. That's been established beyond a doubt.

Kal'Stang said:
As for the fake ID you are right..there are those that will use fake ID's and still get away with voter fraud. No system is 100% effective. If it was then there would be no murders, rapes, thefts etc etc. Voter ID's is only one link in a chain to prevent fraud and it should be treated as such. It should never be treated as an end all be all fool proof system.
I'm not questioning the effectiveness. There is no problem to combat, so therefore there will be no change.

One of the voter obstructionists argument is that it's impossible to measure how much voter fraud there is now without photo ID. So my question is - if it's immposible to measure voter fraud now, without photo ID, how will it be possible to measure voter fraud with photo ID laws in place to determine if the photo ID laws are working?

Or is this going to be a Romney 'Trust Me' moment?
 
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