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Thread: Sparks fly’ over US policy on Iran at meeting between Netanyahu and US envoy

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    Re: Sparks fly’ over US policy on Iran at meeting between Netanyahu and US envoy

    You don't pay attention, Israel doesn't hold back just because someone asked them too. They hold back because they need the US for aid, both military and financial. Israel has very selective hearing. Total deafness on West Bank settlements. Bat like hearing if a US official says something not considered hard line enough to the Arabs.

    Nutty's bluff and posturing attempts to make it sound as if Israel is being 'pressured' and Iran isn't. That is 180 from the truth.

    The 2006 Incursion saw Israel attack Lebanon's civilian infrastructure in a mindless assault on everything from hospitals to water treatment plants in a display pure vindictiveness.

    Also saw Israel's vaunted Ground Forces bogged down in the Lebanese 'mud' as Anti-tank strongpoints swarmed the poorly trained tank crews. To quote Joel Himelfarb," The pull out from Lebanon descended into chaos, as Israeli troops staggered back across the border, telling reporters that their military equipment and training had proven useless against Hezbollah, and it's Lebanese allies."

    Mossad Chief Meir Degan and Head of Shin Bet Yuval Diskin- "the war was a national catastrophe and Israel suffered a critical blow."

    Israel needs an emergency resupply of precision air munitions from the USofA as they ran through their supply without the desired results.

    Despite repeated assaults Bint Jbeil never fell to the Israelis. An unheard of successful resistance.

    10,000 Israeli ground troops against 3,000 Hezbollah and in three weeks of ground war the Israelis could barely makes a 4 mile dent with key points on the border still in Hezbollah hands. Reserve troops with little if any training, little food and poor equipment refused to carry out simple orders.

    24 Merkava 4 tanks of the 401 Brigade attempt to cross the Wadi al-Saluki, 11 are hit, commanders from company to Bn are killed or wounded, infantry pinned down and can't support.

    Brig. General Zuckerman in command of the Northern reserve armored div resigns after his units dismal failure. He cites poor training of his soldiers.

    Far from leading from the front, out of 11 Brigade commanders only one actually set foot on Lebanese soil.

    Hezbollah fired 250 rockets into Israel in the closing hours of the war, so the goal of ending the rocket attacks was never achieved.

    According to Israel's Winograd report Hezbollah fired 3,790 rockets killing 42 and wounding 4,262 with an additional 2,773 requiring treatment for anxiety.

    It quote IAF planner Ron Tira -

    "Israel failed on a strategic, operational, and tactical levels. Israel did not succeed in generating decapitation, paralysis, blindness or any other effect that substantially harms the will or functioning of the organization's command and control echelon. Nor did it succeed in suppressing the operational effectiveness of Hizbollah's combat groups and light Surface to Surface rocket formations. At the end of the day, Israel did not upset the equilibrium of Hizbollah's system and did not create a sense of helplessness and distress, nor did it push the organization toward collapse and a drive to end the war immediately on Israel's terms."

    Source, Matt Mathews at the US Army Combined Arms Center.

    So for all the munitions used, the destruction of so much of Lebanon's civilian infrastructure, and civilian deaths- Israeli's military objectives were not achieved. Failure in simple terms. While the USofA won a huge victory in Iraq over a very powerful conventional force with far fewer causalities for the forces used, Israel struggled with Hezbollah uncowed and earning much coup in the Middle East.

    Israel isn't the Israel of the 6 Day War.

    As long as Israel continues to occupy the West Bank peace will not come. If you think Israeli omas risk death now, let Israel bomb Iran and see the blowback in retaliation.

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    Re: Sparks fly’ over US policy on Iran at meeting between Netanyahu and US envoy

    DVSentinel-

    The 6 Day War was long ago, 1967, the Israeli Forces are nothing like what they once were. Israel didn't flinch from attacking civilian population centers during the Incursion. Citing Hezbollah's use of civilian shields- Israel attacked hospitals, schools and power plants, water treatment plants punishing Lebanon for having Hezbollah on it's land.

    Many reports of poorly trained tank crews and reserve infantry units never training in combined arms or at the brigade level. Years of suppressing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank unlearned the lessons of the 6 Day War. An Israeli ship was badly damaged by a cruise missile- one key reason the anti-missile radar was not in use, the crew not believing Hezbollah had such weapons!

    Israel didn't hold back to limit civilian deaths, they were confident they could bomb for a bit, then crush all Hezbollah ground units with ease.

    They didn't.

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    Re: Sparks fly’ over US policy on Iran at meeting between Netanyahu and US envoy

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    You don't pay attention, Israel doesn't hold back just because someone asked them too. They hold back because they need the US for aid, both military and financial. Israel has very selective hearing. Total deafness on West Bank settlements. Bat like hearing if a US official says something not considered hard line enough to the Arabs.

    Nutty's bluff and posturing attempts to make it sound as if Israel is being 'pressured' and Iran isn't. That is 180 from the truth.

    The 2006 Incursion saw Israel attack Lebanon's civilian infrastructure in a mindless assault on everything from hospitals to water treatment plants in a display pure vindictiveness.

    Also saw Israel's vaunted Ground Forces bogged down in the Lebanese 'mud' as Anti-tank strongpoints swarmed the poorly trained tank crews. To quote Joel Himelfarb," The pull out from Lebanon descended into chaos, as Israeli troops staggered back across the border, telling reporters that their military equipment and training had proven useless against Hezbollah, and it's Lebanese allies."

    Mossad Chief Meir Degan and Head of Shin Bet Yuval Diskin- "the war was a national catastrophe and Israel suffered a critical blow."

    Israel needs an emergency resupply of precision air munitions from the USofA as they ran through their supply without the desired results.

    Despite repeated assaults Bint Jbeil never fell to the Israelis. An unheard of successful resistance.

    10,000 Israeli ground troops against 3,000 Hezbollah and in three weeks of ground war the Israelis could barely makes a 4 mile dent with key points on the border still in Hezbollah hands. Reserve troops with little if any training, little food and poor equipment refused to carry out simple orders.

    24 Merkava 4 tanks of the 401 Brigade attempt to cross the Wadi al-Saluki, 11 are hit, commanders from company to Bn are killed or wounded, infantry pinned down and can't support.

    Brig. General Zuckerman in command of the Northern reserve armored div resigns after his units dismal failure. He cites poor training of his soldiers.

    Far from leading from the front, out of 11 Brigade commanders only one actually set foot on Lebanese soil.

    Hezbollah fired 250 rockets into Israel in the closing hours of the war, so the goal of ending the rocket attacks was never achieved.

    According to Israel's Winograd report Hezbollah fired 3,790 rockets killing 42 and wounding 4,262 with an additional 2,773 requiring treatment for anxiety.

    It quote IAF planner Ron Tira -

    "Israel failed on a strategic, operational, and tactical levels. Israel did not succeed in generating decapitation, paralysis, blindness or any other effect that substantially harms the will or functioning of the organization's command and control echelon. Nor did it succeed in suppressing the operational effectiveness of Hizbollah's combat groups and light Surface to Surface rocket formations. At the end of the day, Israel did not upset the equilibrium of Hizbollah's system and did not create a sense of helplessness and distress, nor did it push the organization toward collapse and a drive to end the war immediately on Israel's terms."

    Source, Matt Mathews at the US Army Combined Arms Center.

    So for all the munitions used, the destruction of so much of Lebanon's civilian infrastructure, and civilian deaths- Israeli's military objectives were not achieved. Failure in simple terms. While the USofA won a huge victory in Iraq over a very powerful conventional force with far fewer causalities for the forces used, Israel struggled with Hezbollah uncowed and earning much coup in the Middle East.

    Israel isn't the Israel of the 6 Day War.

    As long as Israel continues to occupy the West Bank peace will not come. If you think Israeli omas risk death now, let Israel bomb Iran and see the blowback in retaliation.
    You over simplify and ignore numerous defense reviews of the conflict, including the Winograd Commission. The principle accusation leveled at Israel, both from within the country and from foreign security institutions and reviews was that the political-military decision making process utterly failed as a result of indecision from Olmert and Halutz to name the top two officials. This resulted in a haphazard and half-hearted deployment of forces for objectives that were only loosely outlined and specified. The disparity is better compared to the 1982 Lebanon War than the Six Day War of 1967. For the bulk of the campaign Israel deployed less than a division, or rather the equivalent of two maneuver infantry brigades (not how Israel classifies its brigades, this refers to NATO standard) and support battalions this equaled about 9,000-11,000 troops, and only in the final days of the war in the Litani portions of the campaign did Israel temporarily reinforce by deploying two more divisions for 4 days of fighting.

    Contrast this to the 1982 Lebanon War when Israel faced a similar situation in the form of a highly organized, well equipped, and fortified PLO, an enemy who was roughly equivalent to the Hezbollah of 2006, if not a marginally stronger. In that conflict Israel deployed more than 8 divisions totaling some 80,000 men, supported several full armored brigades equaling 1,300 Tanks, and more than 3,000 armored vehicles. Not to mention full compliments of artillery, naval interdiction and gunnery support, and of course the full weight and coordination of the IAF.

    Do you see a problem? If so then you are seeing the same problem other security firms, think tanks, and military academies have noted. The Israeli high command fundamentally failed to recognize the seriousness of its opponent, and could not decide on what sort of operation this was going to be. It's very easy to carry out this sort of punitive operation against Hamas, but Hezbollah had had almost 7 years to rearm, fortify, and prepare its positions in South Lebanon. An Israeli offensive would require significantly more troops and coordination, with much more definitive objectives.

    However it would be a crucial error to chalk this up to a failure or a critical weakness on the part of the IDF as a fighting body. While Israel lost, it did so because it did not win. That being said it managed to inflict heavy casualties on a paramilitary organization that cannot easily replace trained troops. The majority of the fighters that Hezbollah lost were seasoned veterans, and it suffered heavily. If we accept the premise that Hezbollah deployed 3,000 fighters (not one that many really accept) than the loss of close 700 fighters was a catastrophic drain of resources that could not feasibly have been sustained for much longer. Nasrallah himself admitted to the heavy price he and his country paid for the prisoner raid and claimed he would not have repeated these attacks if given the chance. That being said, Hezbollah clearly scored the political victory, which for that conflict was all that mattered. Israel was defeated.

    But it would be a critical mistake to assume things would play out as they did in 2006 if it happened again. I think you could expect as much as a 10 division Israeli offensive that pushes to the Litani and beyond. Hezbollah knows that, and again it is why they have not exactly been keen to start up a renewed front with Israel, even though it might seem like a decent idea to take the pressure off of their patron in Damascus.

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    Re: Sparks fly’ over US policy on Iran at meeting between Netanyahu and US envoy

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    DVSentinel-

    The 6 Day War was long ago, 1967, the Israeli Forces are nothing like what they once were. Israel didn't flinch from attacking civilian population centers during the Incursion. Citing Hezbollah's use of civilian shields- Israel attacked hospitals, schools and power plants, water treatment plants punishing Lebanon for having Hezbollah on it's land.

    Many reports of poorly trained tank crews and reserve infantry units never training in combined arms or at the brigade level. Years of suppressing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank unlearned the lessons of the 6 Day War. An Israeli ship was badly damaged by a cruise missile- one key reason the anti-missile radar was not in use, the crew not believing Hezbollah had such weapons!

    Israel didn't hold back to limit civilian deaths, they were confident they could bomb for a bit, then crush all Hezbollah ground units with ease.

    They didn't.
    First of all Israel did hold back to limit civilian deaths, if they didn't then the civilian death toll would be in the tens of thousands. An excellent example is the case of Bint Jbeal where requests to use heavy air support to level most of the town as an active combat zone and not a civilian area were denied. As for the radar and related electronic systems on the INS Hanit, you misunderstand. It is common for all warships to have these turned off unless they expect an impending use for them, this includes the US Navy. It is because they are expensive systems to keep permanent operational and can cause grave difficulties in regular mission operations. That Hezbollah would have a C-802 was indeed unexpected, but it was not realistic of Israel to expect them to have it.

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    Re: Sparks fly’ over US policy on Iran at meeting between Netanyahu and US envoy

    All I am reading are excuses.

    Long ago a bug eyed Drill taught me the maximum effective range of an excuse- "ZERO Mutha-****in meters MAGGOT!"

    What I see in the cluster **** that was the incursion was a military that has rested on it's laurels for far too long, stopped training for more conventional war and got into the suppress Palestinians rut- the debacle in the Wadi shows tank crews forgot how to mask with smoke before attempting a crossing and laying in indirect fires to support crossing a danger area- shows piss poor training. As did the Israeli naval vessel hit by the cruise missile. The swabbies thought there were no cruise missiles operational so no need for the anti-missile radar.

    Reservists not called up in years as it is very damaging to the economy and civilian morale.

    Israel didn't hold back, they bombed the crap out of non-military targets citing Hezbollah using civilian areas- schools, mosques, hospitals, water treatment plants...

    No Sir, it was like the schoolyard bully getting a bloody nose and lashing out at everyone.

    Typical excuse making- blow off Israel's own reports, the planners, and resignations of senior officers...

    The much vaunted and highly respected IDF of the '67 war has devolved into a bully boy, civilian suppression force that does well in an very low threat environment, but not when a well trained, very committed, well armed foe stands it's ground. Against kids tossing rock the IDF rules. Against determined fighters with deadly missiles- not so better.

    Nutty-yahoo has best keep his saber in his pants, launching an attack on Iran could show the World how weak Israel really is in the face of a credible defense. An effective defense on Iran's part boosts it's street cred while diminishing Arab prestige.

    Unintended consequences- Nutty just may release a Pandora's box Israel, the USofA, and Saudi Arabia won't much care for.

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    Re: Sparks fly’ over US policy on Iran at meeting between Netanyahu and US envoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mya View Post
    If you care to check the news you will understand that Israel is quite prepared to attempt stopping Iran's doomsday scenario by itself, but it's constantly being asked in the strongest terms by the Obama administration not to do so!

    You can't have it both ways!
    By all means.. Israel should go ahead.. and when they have blown Iran to bits and killed a million Iranians, they can rebuild Iran.

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