Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

Running said:

You see that is the beauty of being a teacher. You show up, give them a worksheet you printed ten years ago. And now no one can accuse you of doing nothing. People like you eat it up and defend government incompetence cause you'd be just as bad if you were in a government position.

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having grown up in a household headed by two teachers, i can say that you are demonstrating that you know next to nothing about what teachers really do.

ThePlayDrive said:

I agree that tenure, in some areas, could be more efficient. However, can you demonstrate the low efficiency of tenure is the fault of unions and not of the government or other groups?

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It's the fault of the teacher's unions for lobbying the government for inefficient tenure policies, and it's the fault of the government for listening to them.

Please show what "education innovation" teacher's unions are opposed to, why they say they are against, what their counter proposals are and why the "educational innovation" they oppose is better for students than their counter proposals.

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I provided three such examples in my previous post. Innovation is never clearly better than the status quo...that's why it's innovation. Teacher's unions routinely reject ideas which, on their face, make economic sense. That doesn't mean that they'll all work as intended, but we'll never know if no one is allowed to try them. Furthermore, it isn't the union's place to decide what is and isn't the best organizational policy for the students. That's the voter's job.

The reason I'm asking you to do this is because people often accuse teacher's unions of opposing things simply out of their own self-interest when, in fact, they oppose things because they believe that they have ideas that will help students more than the positions that they are opposing or because the things they are opposing are demonstrably negative in terms of how they affect students.

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Not buying it. Teacher's union's are no different than any other self-interested organization. Their members pay dues, and their entire reason for existence is to maximize benefits to their members. So pardon me if I roll my eyes whenever they insist on some policy because "think of the children," which just so happens to benefit the teacher's union as well.

Well, actually, teacher's needs and student's needs match up the majority of time which is one of the reasons why opposing teacher's unions is a perplexing position.

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Their interests match up SOME of the time. And when they don't, you can bet that the teacher's unions will do what it thinks is in its OWN best interest at the expense of the students 100% of the time.

Teacher and students want safer schools. Teachers and students want/need a diverse types of classes.

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Presumably if it's a good educational policy, then the voters can be convinced to elect people who support such policies to the Board of Education without such strong-arming tactics.

That said, can you please demonstrate how you know that "it's just a coincidence" and that the teacher's union doesn't genuinely want those things for students?

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Why WOULD the teacher's union care about the needs of the students? That isn't why they exist. I wouldn't expect teacher's unions to care any more about the needs of the students than, say, a coffee corporation or a plumber's guild does. They exist for the benefit of their owners...not for the benefit of students.

ThePlayDrive said:

I agree that tenure, in some areas, could be more efficient. However, can you demonstrate the low efficiency of tenure is the fault of unions and not of the government or other groups?

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What an understatement. You can't even be honest. NYC's Rubber Rooms were finally disbanded in 2010, after years of sending teachers accused of wrongdoing to these daycare centers for the duration of time it took to arduously work through the firing process, where they received full pay, ran businesses out of them, slept, did crossword puzzles, and stayed on the public school system's payroll.

The union did not appear to sacrifice much in the deal. While the agreement speeds hearings, it does little to change the arduous process of firing teachers, particularly ineffective ones. Administrators still must spend months or even years documenting poor performance before the department can begin hearings, which will still last up to two months.

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At the time of disbanding, there were 550 teachers sucking up $30 million a year from "the children" they love so much. From 2008 to 2010, the school system was only able to dismiss three teachers for incompetence and 45 for misconduct including corporal punishment, sexual harrassment or crimes.

And, of course, that resolution did nothing to resolve this issue:

While the agreement may solve the thorny public relations problems for the city and the union, it does nothing to address the more costly absent teacher reserve pool, which consists of teachers who have lost their jobs because of budget cuts or when a school is shut down for poor performance, but have not been accused of incompetence or wrongdoing. Those teachers, who number about 1,100, do not have permanent classroom jobs but draw full salaries; the city spends roughly $100 million annually on the pool.

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Please show what "education innovation" teacher's unions are opposed to, why they say they are against, what their counter proposals are and why the "educational innovation" they oppose is better for students than their counter proposals.

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Well, let's start with vouchers. I actually think that says it all.

The reason I'm asking you to do this is because people often accuse teacher's unions of opposing things simply out of their own self-interest when, in fact, they oppose things because they believe that they have ideas that will help students more than the positions that they are opposing or because the things they are opposing are demonstrably negative in terms of how they affect students.

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If they wanted to help students, they would clearly demonstrate that by bargaining at the table for them. They would present an evaluation system. They would insist on policing themselves. I don't blame teachers. I blame the teachers' unions. They are greedy pigs interested only in making sure they promote divisiveness between teachers and the school system to protect their own jobs.

And, most of all, they would recognize and respect that CPS is out of money.

sawyerloggingon said:

Teachers are already over paid and under worked

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The average starting salary for a teacher nationwide is about $39,000. I don't see that as a lot.

zstep18 said:

The average starting salary for a teacher nationwide is about $39,000. I don't see that as a lot.

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But how much is it when you include all compensation (including health benefits) and divide by the total number of hours worked per year? That salary looks a lot better then.

zstep18 said:

The average starting salary for a teacher nationwide is about $39,000. I don't see that as a lot.

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Teacher salaries are some of the most guarded public sector salary secrets in our country. Illinois has a database to search by name, the most accurate in the country. Other states? Not so much.

But, of course, we don't know where you're getting that information, because you didn't include a link.

Kandahar said:

But how much is it when you include all compensation (including health benefits) and divide by the total number of hours worked per year? That salary looks a lot better then.

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It's a high stress job which has a huge impact on society and individuals. And many teachers have jobs during the summers.

zstep18 said:

It's a high stress job which has a huge impact on society and individuals.

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So are lots of other jobs.

And many teachers have jobs during the summers.

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But presumably they get compensated for those side jobs too. And in any case, what they do off-the-clock isn't really relevant to how much they should get paid for the hours they DO work as teachers.

Let them go on strike and replace them.

I suspect that some Republicans pray they go on strike's in Obama Illinois in the city run by his former chief of staff before the election. Raging teacher's union leaders certainly didn't hurt Scott Walker, did it?

Kandahar said:

So are lots of other jobs.

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What other jobs provide the same benefit to society and require the same amount of education, and pay about the same amount?

zstep18 said:

What other jobs provide the same benefit to society and require the same amount of education, and pay about the same amount?

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You mean the benefit to society that almost 50% of Chicago public schools students don't graduate high school? Is that the benefit you're talking about?

MaggieD said:

You mean the benefit to society that almost 50% of Chicago public schools students don't graduate high school? Is that the benefit you're talking about?

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So we should blame the teachers? It's strange that while you talk about problems with the educational system (which there are most definitely problems), you seem to think that teachers are overvalued.

zstep18 said:

What other jobs provide the same benefit to society and require the same amount of education, and pay about the same amount?

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What other jobs provide the same benefit to society and require the same amount of education, and pay about the same amount that provides 10 to 14 weeks of vacation including the entirety of the Christmas-New Years holiday and most of summer?

zstep18 said:

So we should blame the teachers? It's strange that while you talk about problems with the educational system (which there are most definitely problems), you seem to think that teachers are overvalued.

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Yes, teachers having nothing to do with the education of children.

zstep18 said:

What other jobs provide the same benefit to society and require the same amount of education, and pay about the same amount?

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Well, first of all the premise is erroneous. The market values of salaries are governed by supply and demand, not by what provides the most "benefit to society." As far as jobs requiring the same amount of education...there are a lot of jobs that pay about the same amount. $39,000 isn't bad for a starting professional with a bachelor's degree, especially if they can expect regular salary bumps for each year worked and a salary bump when they get their master's degree. And it's definitely not bad when you consider the dollar value of the benefits teachers receive, and the amount of hours they work.

joko104 said:

What other jobs provide the same benefit to society and require the same amount of education, and pay about the same amount that provides 10 to 14 weeks of vacation including the entirety of the Christmas-New Years holiday and most of summer?

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A teacher doesn't stop working once they leave the classroom. And I noticed you listed several professions but then edited them out: they were cop, firefighter, paramedic, and registered nurse. Two of those professions, firefighter and cop, don't require the education that is required of teachers. The other two professions, paramedic and nurse, pay more on average than a teacher.

zstep18 said:

So we should blame the teachers? It's strange that while you talk about problems with the educational system (which there are most definitely problems), you seem to think that teachers are overvalued.

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I can't speak for anyone else, but *I* certainly think teachers are overvalued. If their compensation were correctly priced, then they wouldn't have any need for a teacher's union because market forces would be sufficient to keep salaries where they were. And if their compensation were correctly priced, then there wouldn't be such an oversupply of people with teaching degrees. Teacher's unions exist to wring from the public as many perks as possible for teachers.

That's not to say that I think their compensation should be reduced. I'd prefer instead to increase hours and/or hire more talented people by changing the structure of the compensation.

If teachers salaries are determined by supply and demand could you explain why big city districts with hundreds of openings in the recent past had some of the lowest wages? I refer to Detroit which routinely had several hundred openings in the past 20 years that they could never fill while the salaries there were in the bottom 25% of tri-county districts encompassing over 70 school districts.

Concurrently, when a top ten salary district like Bloomfield Hills had one opening they would routinely get hundreds and hundreds of applications and they never had jobs that went unclaimed.

So how does supply and demand work into this reality?

zstep18 said:

So we should blame the teachers? It's strange that while you talk about problems with the educational system (which there are most definitely problems), you seem to think that teachers are overvalued.

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I resent the fact that, here in Chicago, the teachers' unions are oblivious to taxpayer burdens. And, while on the one hand, teachers' unions are quick to point out that the teachers aren't to blame for student failure (generational student failure), they consistently say, pay us more so we can recruit better people with which to fail. More money is not the answer -- at least not more money thrown at teachers.

Illinois (along with some other states, I'm sure) is in a financial mess, not in small part to the public sector salaries and pensions the Democratic Party has seen fit to bestow in order to shore up their voter base.

haymarket said:

If teachers salaries are determined by supply and demand could you explain why big city districts with hundreds of openings in the recent past had some of the lowest wages? I refer to Detroit which routinely had several hundred openings in the past 20 years that they could never fill while the salaries there were in the bottom 25% of tri-county districts encompassing over 70 school districts.

Concurrently, when a top ten salary district like Bloomfield Hills had one opening they would routinely get hundreds and hundreds of applications and they never had jobs that went unclaimed.

So how does supply and demand work into this reality?

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Well, I think that just proves the point. Districts that pay less than what the labor is actually worth, will have trouble filling those positions. If they want to fill those positions, they'll have to pay more. Similarly, districts that pay more than what the labor is worth will have an oversupply of teachers willing to work there. And the latter situation is far more common.

Kandahar said:

Well, I think that just proves the point. Districts that pay less than what the labor is actually worth, will have trouble filling those positions. If they want to fill those positions, they'll have to pay more. Similarly, districts that pay more than what the labor is worth will have an oversupply of teachers willing to work there. And the latter situation is far more common.

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But doesn't the theory indicate that if you have a very large supply of applicants like Bloomfield Hills has every year, that the salary would then be lower because the supply is so high and demand is rather small?

Kandahar said:

I'd prefer instead to increase hours and/or hire more talented people by changing the structure of the compensation.

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Increase weekly hours? They work about 9-10 hours each day, go home and continue working. I don't know how your going to increase their work hours.

haymarket said:

If teachers salaries are determined by supply and demand could you explain why big city districts with hundreds of openings in the recent past had some of the lowest wages? I refer to Detroit which routinely had several hundred openings in the past 20 years that they could never fill while the salaries there were in the bottom 25% of tri-county districts encompassing over 70 school districts.

Concurrently, when a top ten salary district like Bloomfield Hills had one opening they would routinely get hundreds and hundreds of applications and they never had jobs that went unclaimed.

So how does supply and demand work into this reality?

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Come on, Detroit is a dying city in its final death throes. Oh, and here's how the teacher's union is helping, by the way:

In a letter to substitutes published on its website, the Detroit Federation of Teachers calls on substitute teachers to “cease and desist with the following responsibilities”:

• Developing lesson plans. Let the administrator provide lesson plans daily or weekly for students in your care, or develop a “survival kit,” activities designed to give students something to do for the periods you have them.
• Do not grade assignments given to students. Let the administration check the assignments you issue.
• Do not enter grades into the grade book. Turn in the grade book you have maintained to the administrator. The administrator can enter any grades achieved and average them for card marking.
• Do not complete the computerized grade sheets. The administrator can enter in grades.
• Do not participate in parent-teacher conferences. Let the administrator confer with parents on a student’s progress in class.

Effectively, the union is demanding substitute teachers STOP educating the youth of Detroit and instead act as mere babysitters. In the letter, DFT President Keith R. Johnson says “I truly regret the necessity to take this action because it is not in the best interest of our students. However, I can no longer allow our members to be treated in such a manner…” An absolute admission that students are NOT the center of concern for the teachers’ union in Detroit. And though Johnson “regrets” taking action that is not in students’ best interest, a sacrifice must be made for the union to get its way and that sacrifice will be the children…the innocent, malleable youth of Detroit…the future of the dying city.

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Union says stop teaching students in Detroit « America, You Asked For It!

haymarket said:

But doesn't the theory indicate that if you have a very large supply of applicants like Bloomfield Hills has every year, that the salary would then be lower because the supply is so high and demand is rather small?

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If the school is paying its workers in accordance with what the market suggests their labor is actually worth, then yes. Salaries would fall until eventually the school didn't have such an oversupply of qualified teachers. And this is precisely what SHOULD happen from a policy perspective. However, if some artificial force (e.g. a teacher's union or state law or other political pressure) is forcing the school to pay MORE than what the labor is worth, then this kind of oversupply is exactly what economics suggests would happen.

haymarket said:

But doesn't the theory indicate that if you have a very large supply of applicants like Bloomfield Hills has every year, that the salary would then be lower because the supply is so high and demand is rather small?

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No, because Bloomfield Hills is a clean, nice place to live and much of Chicago is a dangerous dirty hellhole of over priced housing for what you get.

Chicago teacher pay isn't based upon skill, but seniority, so teacher quality and teacher salary have no relationship in Chicago. Don't tell us the starting salary of a teacher in Chicago. What is the salary AND benefits AND retirement AND insurance values total of a teacher who has been there for 15 years?

More importantly, what is the number of non-teacher staff and administrators and their salaries? What is the total budget expenditures for salaries that are NOT teachers compared to the total for those who are? Administrators pursue raises by hiding behind teachers.