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Thread: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    wow. he acknowledges that tenure may need revision and you then accuse him of lying


    notice that this was the NEGOTIATED method to keep teachers out of the classroom, while recognizing that none of those teachers assigned to report to the 'rubber room' had been determined to be guilty of anything
    that approach was consistent with American values that it is wrong to punish someone without a fair hearing
    let me point out that in such a negotiation the employer was sitting at the table and agreed to such a plan. where is your expressed angst against the employer for not fashioning a more reasonable, cost-effective approach?


    and that the employer was only able to document inappropriate conduct/teaching against less than 10% of those accused tells us what, exactly? to me it says there were too many teachers who were unfairly alleged to have acted inappropriately, because the employer was without the facts to support such allegations. and THAT is the very reason why tenure is important to teachers; without it, they are vulnerable to those in authority who can find no wrong doing but who express displeasure at the teachers' beliefs/opinions in a political work environment



    and that the employer has a pool of employees - whose only action was to be well performing - it has contracted to pay, but no positions to place them in, why is that the blame of the teachers/union and not because of the employers' incompetence to enter into such a fiscally irresponsible agreement?


    why would the teachers be supportive of vouchers? there is a finite budget for education. every dollar sent to a private contractor is a dollar less available to the public education system
    vouchers will only provide a taxpayer subsidy to those affluent parents who can now afford to send their kids to private schools. it is but another transfer of tax benefits from the working person to the elite


    that is not the purpose of the union. its fiduciary responsibility - one required by federal law - is to represent the employees. the teachers. now, of course, when the desires of the teachers aligns with the needs of the students, that strengthens the union's/teachers' argument. but make no mistake, the union is representing the interests of the teachers ... its purpose is NOT to represent the interests of the students. the education department receives taxpayer money to do that


    what makes you believe they do not do this
    the problem is, an effective evaluation system requires work on the part of the administrators. it is they who want an evaluation system that places a premium on easiness rather than accuracy


    what makes you believe that they do not now do this
    their authority is limited, but be assured, most teachers know who the weak links are in their group. just as i would bet no one here defends co-workers who do not pull their own weight, that is also true of teachers
    but let's face the facts. there is a defined mechanism to get rid of poorly performing teachers. but management is too lazy to follow that protocol. it is easier for them to ignore the problem and allow the inferior teachers to inflict themselves on another class of students
    in short, your anger is misplaced. the persons who are allowing weak teachers to remain in the class rooms are education managers. the union cannot defend the indefensible (tho by law, they must attempt to represent them, too); management needs to get off its ass and actually follow the procedure to document the lousy teachers' performance record so that they can either be re-trained to become fully performing or they can be forced to do something other than teach
    and you have provided the evidence to show why i am correct in this damnation of education management. less than 10% of the accused teachers assigned to the rubber room were actually found to be problematic teachers ... that is an indictment of the quality of school management



    and you betray your ignorance of unions. the unions are the employees they represent. by federal law the employees are required to conduct democratic elections to elect their union leadership


    that ignorance of unionization appears once again
    those 'greedy pigs' you castigate are our educators, who are performing their fiduciary responsibility required under law: they are representing the interests of the teachers who elected them to do so


    when you have no money to buy something, do you then go shopping to purchase stuff you cannot afford? that is what the chicago schools did. they are wanting the teachers to work more hours for zero additional pay. what would you or anyone else on this board think if your own employer wanted you to expand your work schedule but offered you no additional money for that additional work?
    my guess is, if you had a union, you would RUN to your rep and insist that he do something to address that inequity
    and if you are like most represented employees, you would then go behind his back and complain that he did not do enough
    I couldn't disagree with you more. More later. I'm about to go visit mom.
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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    With the states Education ranking being down at number 28, maybe the administrators better put in some performance goals that the teachers have to meet to get full pay. Come on they can do it, only 3 places to go before they are in the top 50%.

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    With the states Education ranking being down at number 28, maybe the administrators better put in some performance goals that the teachers have to meet to get full pay. Come on they can do it, only 3 places to go before they are in the top 50%.
    ok, now describe for us what those performance goals might be for the individual teacher
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Joko, are you from Chicago? If so, you may be interested in this link: Family Taxpayers Foundation
    The link is from a staunchly conservative organization that believes instruction on global warming is "indoctrination." I just thought I'd put that out there.

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    No, because Bloomfield Hills is a clean, nice place to live and much of Chicago is a dangerous dirty hellhole of over priced housing for what you get.

    Chicago teacher pay isn't based upon skill, but seniority, so teacher quality and teacher salary have no relationship in Chicago. Don't tell us the starting salary of a teacher in Chicago. What is the salary AND benefits AND retirement AND insurance values total of a teacher who has been there for 15 years?

    More importantly, what is the number of non-teacher staff and administrators and their salaries? What is the total budget expenditures for salaries that are NOT teachers compared to the total for those who are? Administrators pursue raises by hiding behind teachers.
    Chicago does NOT compete in the same market area with Bloomfield Hills. So lets try this again shall we?

    The so called 'law' of supply and demand would indicate that Bloomfield Hills would offer low wages since demand for a low supply of jobs is more than plentiful. They have hundreds of applicants for every opening they have. However, the opposite it true in that they have wages in the top ten of over 70 tri-county school districts.

    On the other hand, Detroit which has to fill hundreds of positions cannot do so while offering low wages in the bottom quarter of the same 70 tri-county school districts.

    Supply and demand seems not be a any sort of 'law' here at all.
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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    It's the fault of the teacher's unions for lobbying the government for inefficient tenure policies, and it's the fault of the government for listening to them.
    I asked for a demonstration, not an unsubstantiated claim. Again, can you please demonstrate that "the low efficiency of tenure is the fault of unions and not of the government or other groups"? Demonstration requires that you show causation with facts not that you just keep repeating your argument.


    I provided three such examples in my previous post. Innovation is never clearly better than the status quo...that's why it's innovation. Teacher's unions routinely reject ideas which, on their face, make economic sense. That doesn't mean that they'll all work as intended, but we'll never know if no one is allowed to try them. Furthermore, it isn't the union's place to decide what is and isn't the best organizational policy for the students. That's the voter's job.
    Again, you have repeated your argument which is NOT a demonstration that your argument is correct. Again, please show what "education innovation" teacher's unions are opposed to, why they say they are against it, what their counter proposals are and why the "educational innovation" they oppose is better for students than their counter proposals.

    Not buying it. Teacher's union's are no different than any other self-interested organization. Their members pay dues, and their entire reason for existence is to maximize benefits to their members. So pardon me if I roll my eyes whenever they insist on some policy because "think of the children," which just so happens to benefit the teacher's union as well.
    I'm not interested in what you "buy" or what makes you "roll your eyes." That's your business. I'm interested in a demonstration that your arguments are correct. Please demonstrate the accuracy of your arguments. So far, you have merely repeated your beliefs without substantiation. I'm trying to understand what demonstrable evidence has lead you to the conclusions that you've come to.

    Their interests match up SOME of the time. And when they don't, you can bet that the teacher's unions will do what it thinks is in its OWN best interest at the expense of the students 100% of the time.
    Please demonstrate that "the teacher's unions will do what it thinks is in its OWN best interest at the expense of the students 100% of the time." Because you have invoked percentages, statistics will be necessary.

    Presumably if it's a good educational policy, then the voters can be convinced to elect people who support such policies to the Board of Education without such strong-arming tactics.
    In an ideal world that would be true, yes. Unfortunately, we live in a world where people refuse to demonstrate the veracity of their arguments and "roll their eyes" when others ask them for evidence.

    Why WOULD the teacher's union care about the needs of the students? That isn't why they exist. I wouldn't expect teacher's unions to care any more about the needs of the students than, say, a coffee corporation or a plumber's guild does. They exist for the benefit of their owners...not for the benefit of students.
    This is not a demonstration of how you know that "it's just a coincidence" and that the teacher's union doesn't genuinely want those things for students. Please demonstrate that. Asking "why would they" is NOT a demonstration. It is a deflective question.

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    having grown up in a household headed by two teachers, i can say that you are demonstrating that you know next to nothing about what teachers really do.
    Having grown up with a teacher for a mother and principal for a father, I concur.

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Come on, Detroit is a dying city in its final death throes. Oh, and here's how the teacher's union is helping, by the way:



    Union says stop teaching students in Detroit America, You Asked For It!
    Maggie - your source clearly indicates that these ARE NOT the normal duties of the teacher nor are they the normal union recommended activities for teachers.

    You are badly confusing a temporary and suggested list of ways to find breaking the union with what the union and teachers have been doing for fifty or more years.
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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    ok, now describe for us what those performance goals might be for the individual teacher
    Bah, I don't know. I am not a teacher nor have I ever worked in education, I killed people and broke things for a living. Surely someone somewhere could come up with some measure of performance.

    I think all contracts should have performance measures in them. If you want full pay, you do full work. I don't think that is unreasonable. And it should be included that if you fail to meet performance standards for an set number of cycles, then, bye, your fired and no severance for you. The only time I would have problems with that is if your "performance" was someone else's opinion instead of a measurable standard.

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    What an understatement. You can't even be honest. NYC's Rubber Rooms were finally disbanded in 2010, after years of sending teachers accused of wrongdoing to these daycare centers for the duration of time it took to arduously work through the firing process, where they received full pay, ran businesses out of them, slept, did crossword puzzles, and stayed on the public school system's payroll.

    At the time of disbanding, there were 550 teachers sucking up $30 million a year from "the children" they love so much. From 2008 to 2010, the school system was only able to dismiss three teachers for incompetence and 45 for misconduct including corporal punishment, sexual harrassment or crimes.

    And, of course, that resolution did nothing to resolve this issue:
    Please do not accuse of me dishonesty. That is no foundation on which to build a fruitful discussion. As I said, I believe that tenure could be more efficient in some areas. Just because I do not see it as problematic as you do does not mean that I am being "dishonest." On the contrary, it means that we disagree.

    Well, let's start with vouchers. I actually think that says it all.
    The word "vouchers" is not an argument nor a demonstration of the veracity of an argument. Please show why teacher's unions say they are against vouchers, what their counter proposals are and why vouchers are better for students than their counter proposals.

    If they wanted to help students, they would clearly demonstrate that by bargaining at the table for them.
    I've already provided links where the head of the Chicago Teacher's Union showed that they are bargaining on behalf of student interests in addition to their own interests. In addition to that, CTU leaders have given several interviews where they've explained that as well. Why is this insufficient for you?

    They would present an evaluation system.
    They have presented a plan for evaluation system.

    Here is the plan: http://www.ctunet.com/quest-center/r...inal_Offer.pdf

    Here is more information on the plan and their work with CPS to develop one: Chicago Teachers Union | Teacher Evaluation

    They would insist on policing themselves.
    What do you mean? This is vague.

    I don't blame teachers. I blame the teachers' unions.
    If you blame the Chicago Teacher's Union, then you are blaming the 90% of unionized Chicago teachers since the majority of them voted to authorize a strike in June based on what CTU is proposing.

    They are greedy pigs interested only in making sure they promote divisiveness between teachers and the school system to protect their own jobs.
    Please demonstrate that CTU "are greedy pigs interested only in making sure they promote divisiveness between teachers and the school system to protect their own jobs." And please demonstrate how you are not, then, calling a significant amount of teachers "greedy pigs" since the majority of teachers voted to authorize a strike.

    And, most of all, they would recognize and respect that CPS is out of money.
    Actually, CPS should have respected the fact that it was out of money by not increasing the length of the school day, particularly since there is no demonstrable benefit to the students for doing so. I mean, how much sense does that make?

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