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Thread: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

  1. #131
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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    OK, you're getting hostile and are arguing entirely with emotion now, so this may be my last response to you:
    Not at all.

    I'm not really sure what kind of "demonstration" you are asking for here. I mean, are you seriously denying that special interest groups lobby the government for policies? I doubt this is what you had in mind in terms of a "demonstration" (I doubt you even KNOW what you had in mind), but I'll spell it out as best I can for you:

    1. Teacher's unions endorse certain politicians.
    2. Teacher's unions endorse certain policies that benefit the teacher's union (e.g. inefficient tenure).
    3. Politicians implement said policies in order to stay in the teacher's union's good graces.
    I am asking for causation. You have still failed to show causation. Please demonstrate how "the low efficiency of tenure is the fault of unions and not of the government or other groups"? Please show the politicians and policies that unions have endorsed and how those policies have directly caused the low efficiency of tenure.

    And as I already explained, innovation is NOT clearly better for students than the status quo. That's why it's innovation. But we will never know as long as the teacher's unions stand in the way and refuse to allow any experimentation whatsoever in our education system if it might pose a threat to the teacher's union. Regarding your other three points:
    1. What innovation have they stood in the way of and why are those apparently untested ideas are better than the tested ones the unions are in favor of?
    2. Please show a pattern of unions standing in the way of "any experimentation that might post a threat to the union." In other words, show the experimentation you have in mind and show the words/behavior of the union in response to it that shows they only oppose it because it threatens the union.

    "what education innovation teacher's unions are opposed to" - I already gave you three. Merit pay, online education, and charter schools.

    "why they say they are against it" - The same reason they say they are against ANY innovation: zomg think of the children. In reality, they oppose these things because merit pay will pose a threat to the most mediocre teachers, and online education and charter schools operate outside the boundaries of the union entirely.

    "what their counter proposals are" - They don't have any. In all three cases, their counter proposal is the status quo.
    1. Thank you. I was waiting on the second two.
    2. Citations? Where is your evidence of this? You just keep restating it without evidence. That is what I mean by demonstration.
    3. You just revealed your ignorance which is exactly what I suspected was the problem. They do have counter proposals. Now, what are those counter proposals and why are they worse than what you propose? (And don't give me the "but we haven't tested them yet" nonsense. Almost every "innovative" proposal in education has research to support or not support it, so if you don't think it does, you're just revealing your ignorance again.)

    What demonstrable evidence that leads me to the conclusion that a group organized specifically for the benefit of teachers doesn't have STUDENTS' best interests at heart? Really? That's like asking me what demonstrable evidence there is that large corporations care more about making money for their shareholders than they do about helping the poor. Or like asking me what demonstrable evidence there is that an environmental activist group cares more about the environment than they do about gun control.
    Yes, please provide demonstrable evidence to support your unsubstantiated opinion.

    I thought it would be pretty self-evident that a group that is paid for by members' dues of teachers - and whose leadership is elected by teachers - would care more about teachers than students or anyone else. No?
    Your original argument was not that they care more about teachers, but that they care only about teachers. Please demonstrate the latter. The "self-evident" defense doesn't even work for a high school paper, let alone adult "debates."

    See above. Why WOULDN'T they act in their own self-interest? But here, I'll make this simple. You're right, I said 100% of the time they'll act in their own best interest. And I stand by that. So if you can find me one single example of a teacher's union advocating for an educational policy that would benefit the students, at the expense of the teacher's union itself, I will retract that claim and admit that I was wrong. It can be anything, from anywhere in the United States.
    I never said that they don't act in their self-interest. I questioned this argument, "the teacher's unions will do what it thinks is in its OWN best interest at the expense of the students 100% of the time." Please demonstrate the veracity of THAT argument.

    Teachers are not special. If they think they have an educational policy that can benefit society, they should have to convince the voters just like anyone else rather than strongarming elected officials to get their way. And if the voters are too stupid to see it the same way, then that's just too bad. This is not a dictatorship.
    Irrelevant, emotional comment is irrelevant and emotional.

    I think you're being deliberately obtuse because you are fully aware that the facts are not on your side. "Why would they" is a perfectly valid question here; the fact that you have no answer is quite telling. Teacher's unions, like any other entity organized for a specific purpose and elected by its members, are going to advocate for that purpose. If they don't, the leadership will quickly find itself replaced by more pliant leadership.
    At the beginning of this exchange, you made several arguments and provided no evidence or sources to substantiate them. I have repeatedly asked you to substantiate your claims by demonstrating their veracity with citations, statistics, research or other forms of evidence. You still yet to provide one single piece of evidence in either of those forms and instead have just argued that your claims are "self-evident" or mocked for not just accepting whatever you say. As a result, you have shown, unsurprisingly, that you are grossly uninformed and unable to support your own claims.

  2. #132
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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by zstep18 View Post
    So you recognize that the Chicago Public Schools are war zones with lousy high school graduation rate. If it was me, if a "qualified" teacher was willing to work in these "war zones", I would greatly increase their salary. Cause like I said before, there's the tendency to hire those who are new to the profession or those who can't find a job anywhere else.
    What's wrong with a new teacher? You must not know too many. New teachers are highly motivated, dedicated young people who are chomping at the bit to make a difference. People don't go into teaching because they can't find a job anywhere else. The greater majority of them who go into teaching have had that as a career choice for years.

    In the case of Chicago Public Schools, two teachers (shirt-tail family) took positions there for a couple of reasons. Not the least of which was that by working in them for "X number of years," their student loans were forgiven. They make great money . . . one started at $55,000/year. That's not bad for right out of college. Not sure about the other. It's not easy to a get a teaching job in CPS. There is no shortage of applicants.
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  3. #133
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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    What's wrong with a new teacher? You must not know too many. New teachers are highly motivated, dedicated young people who are chomping at the bit to make a difference. People don't go into teaching because they can't find a job anywhere else. The greater majority of them who go into teaching have had that as a career choice for years.
    I mean't teachers who are hired at low-income schools because they can't find a teaching job anywhere else.

  4. #134
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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I think we've mostly discovered that a students achievement is mostly related to their home situation.
    So why are we extending schools hours and why should we pay teachers more, when the effects of both, at best, will be marginal.
    I think the reason for extending school hours, at least in the City of Chicago, has more to do with keeping students in a safe learning environment for longer periods of time. To me, it would make more sense to extend the school day to allow specifically for homework assignments rather than classroom time. Honestly, some of these kids have to navigate through virtual war zones to get to-and-from.

    When 40-50% of Chicago Public Schools' students aren't graduating, an extra hour or two of classroom learning is hardly the answer from an academic standpoint. You're right about the cause, in my opinion.

    A teacher or a union who says, "Pay us more and results will be better," is being disingenuous. Unless the answer is, "Fire them all, and hire some competent people." And that's not the answer.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Cherry-picking is a good thing. Give the kids who want to learn a chance.
    The problem is, what do you do with the students who don't want to learn? Shoot them?
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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by zstep18 View Post
    So you recognize that the Chicago Public Schools are war zones with lousy high school graduation rate. If it was me, if a "qualified" teacher was willing to work in these "war zones", I would greatly increase their salary. Cause like I said before, there's the tendency to hire those who are new to the profession or those who can't find a job anywhere else.
    And you're just including teachers who are greedy in the mix. What you end up with are teachers who just don't care and just want a paycheck with very little demand that they be effective.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    The problem is, what do you do with the students who don't want to learn? Shoot them?
    how about giving them another option, something other than sitting in a classroom focused on a subject needed for college when they have no intentions of going to college
    teach them skills. life skills. work skills. trade skills. business skills
    and even then there will be a portion who resent having to be in any kind of class room; the ones who attend only because of their age they must, or because their family gets a bigger check because they are enrolled, or because it is their available social gathering place or because it is the market where they can best sell drugs. but what you have done is gotten them out of the academic class where they contributed little other than a major distraction
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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    And you're just including teachers who are greedy in the mix. What you end up with are teachers who just don't care and just want a paycheck with very little demand that they be effective.
    only recently, when it was found that teaching as an occupation was being shunned by the best and brightest because of its low pay, have teaching salaries become realistic. school funding was made available for those who would commit to teaching to repay the cost of their education
    in short, teaching has not been the place where people who sought high salaries went in search of a career. they are wage earners, who will never make more than a middle class income. to pretend that teachers are in it for the money is laughable and betrays your ignorance of the state of the education system
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  9. #139
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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    The problem is, what do you do with the students who don't want to learn? Shoot them?
    No. That's where the money gets spent. On more teachers and separate, perhaps boarding, facilities for these kids. Get them out of their neighborhoods. Give them one-on-one mentoring. Put them in an environment that, yes, isolates them -- but also gives them the attention, reward mechanisms and atta' boys that they need to succeed. I'd love to see just ONE pilot program like that. And I'd be willing to pay for it through higher taxes.

    What we are doing is not working. We need some out-of-the-box ideas. And this is just one. The definition of insanity, as I'm sure you know, is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. It's time for drastic changes. We are losing generations of kids with what we're doing now.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    how about giving them another option, something other than sitting in a classroom focused on a subject needed for college when they have no intentions of going to college
    teach them skills. life skills. work skills. trade skills. business skills
    and even then there will be a portion who resent having to be in any kind of class room; the ones who attend only because of their age they must, or because their family gets a bigger check because they are enrolled, or because it is their available social gathering place or because it is the market where they can best sell drugs. but what you have done is gotten them out of the academic class where they contributed little other than a major distraction
    But we're not talking about kids who don't want to follow a particular educational path, we're talking about kids who don't want to learn ANYTHING. No college. No trade. No nothing. They have zero interest in any kind of education, period. So what do you do with those?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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