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Thread: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

  1. #91
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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    OK, you're getting hostile and are arguing entirely with emotion now, so this may be my last response to you:

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    I asked for a demonstration, not an unsubstantiated claim. Again, can you please demonstrate that "the low efficiency of tenure is the fault of unions and not of the government or other groups"? Demonstration requires that you show causation with facts not that you just keep repeating your argument.
    I'm not really sure what kind of "demonstration" you are asking for here. I mean, are you seriously denying that special interest groups lobby the government for policies? I doubt this is what you had in mind in terms of a "demonstration" (I doubt you even KNOW what you had in mind), but I'll spell it out as best I can for you:

    1. Teacher's unions endorse certain politicians.
    2. Teacher's unions endorse certain policies that benefit the teacher's union (e.g. inefficient tenure).
    3. Politicians implement said policies in order to stay in the teacher's union's good graces.

    Again, you have repeated your argument which is NOT a demonstration that your argument is correct. Again, please show what "education innovation" teacher's unions are opposed to, why they say they are against it, what their counter proposals are and why the "educational innovation" they oppose is better for students than their counter proposals.
    And as I already explained, innovation is NOT clearly better for students than the status quo. That's why it's innovation. But we will never know as long as the teacher's unions stand in the way and refuse to allow any experimentation whatsoever in our education system if it might pose a threat to the teacher's union. Regarding your other three points:

    "what education innovation teacher's unions are opposed to" - I already gave you three. Merit pay, online education, and charter schools.

    "why they say they are against it" - The same reason they say they are against ANY innovation: zomg think of the children. In reality, they oppose these things because merit pay will pose a threat to the most mediocre teachers, and online education and charter schools operate outside the boundaries of the union entirely.

    "what their counter proposals are" - They don't have any. In all three cases, their counter proposal is the status quo.

    I'm not interested in what you "buy" or what makes you "roll your eyes." That's your business. I'm interested in a demonstration that your arguments are correct. Please demonstrate the accuracy of your arguments. So far, you have merely repeated your beliefs without substantiation. I'm trying to understand what demonstrable evidence has lead you to the conclusions that you've come to.
    What demonstrable evidence that leads me to the conclusion that a group organized specifically for the benefit of teachers doesn't have STUDENTS' best interests at heart? Really? That's like asking me what demonstrable evidence there is that large corporations care more about making money for their shareholders than they do about helping the poor. Or like asking me what demonstrable evidence there is that an environmental activist group cares more about the environment than they do about gun control.

    I thought it would be pretty self-evident that a group that is paid for by members' dues of teachers - and whose leadership is elected by teachers - would care more about teachers than students or anyone else. No?

    Please demonstrate that "the teacher's unions will do what it thinks is in its OWN best interest at the expense of the students 100% of the time." Because you have invoked percentages, statistics will be necessary.
    See above. Why WOULDN'T they act in their own self-interest? But here, I'll make this simple. You're right, I said 100% of the time they'll act in their own best interest. And I stand by that. So if you can find me one single example of a teacher's union advocating for an educational policy that would benefit the students, at the expense of the teacher's union itself, I will retract that claim and admit that I was wrong. It can be anything, from anywhere in the United States.

    In an ideal world that would be true, yes. Unfortunately, we live in a world where people refuse to demonstrate the veracity of their arguments and "roll their eyes" when others ask them for evidence.
    Teachers are not special. If they think they have an educational policy that can benefit society, they should have to convince the voters just like anyone else rather than strongarming elected officials to get their way. And if the voters are too stupid to see it the same way, then that's just too bad. This is not a dictatorship.

    This is not a demonstration of how you know that "it's just a coincidence" and that the teacher's union doesn't genuinely want those things for students. Please demonstrate that. Asking "why would they" is NOT a demonstration. It is a deflective question.
    I think you're being deliberately obtuse because you are fully aware that the facts are not on your side. "Why would they" is a perfectly valid question here; the fact that you have no answer is quite telling. Teacher's unions, like any other entity organized for a specific purpose and elected by its members, are going to advocate for that purpose. If they don't, the leadership will quickly find itself replaced by more pliant leadership.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 08-31-12 at 02:14 PM.
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  2. #92
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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    So it's ok for politicians to do this (with millions of dollars), but it's not ok for teachers to want an increase in salary? Because I do believe we have career GOP (as well as Dem) politicians that do this and get voted back in over and over again.
    Where did I ever say it was okay for the politicians to do it?
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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by Running View Post
    No politician has that type of balls. And realistically, if its done in Chicago. The teachers can be replaced rapidly cause there are a lot of unemployed teachers out in the city and surrounding area. So they would have jobs that these teachers don't want.
    That's the problem, politicians these days have no balls, they don't fight for the people, just special interests. Most politicians are in the pocket of the unions and only seek to do their bidding, even if their bidding is harmful to the people who put them in office.
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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by zstep18 View Post
    It's a high stress job which has a huge impact on society and individuals. And many teachers have jobs during the summers.
    So their actual annual incomes are higher than what was reported.
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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by zstep18 View Post
    So we should blame the teachers? It's strange that while you talk about problems with the educational system (which there are most definitely problems), you seem to think that teachers are overvalued.
    Um... yes! What other business can you run and have a 50% failure rate and still think you deserve raises?
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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Um... yes! What other business can you run and have a 50% failure rate and still think you deserve raises?
    bain capital in the early '90s according to rolling stone/matt taiibbi
    Matt Taibbi Lambastes Romney's Time At Bain

    our nation's incarceration system, for another
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
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  7. #97
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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Um... yes! What other business can you run and have a 50% failure rate and still think you deserve raises?
    I don't know, maybe the administration, shrinking budgets, poverty, problems that children may face at home has an affect on failing schools and not just the teacher's union?

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    bain capital in the early '90s according to rolling stone/matt taiibbi
    Matt Taibbi Lambastes Romney's Time At Bain

    our nation's incarceration system, for another
    So now you are claiming Romney is financially broke?

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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    bain capital in the early '90s according to rolling stone/matt taiibbi
    Matt Taibbi Lambastes Romney's Time At Bain

    our nation's incarceration system, for another
    Nobody is arguing for raises for those losers either.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  10. #100
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    Re: Chicago Teachers Union Gives 10-Day Strike Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by zstep18 View Post
    I don't know, maybe the administration, shrinking budgets, poverty, problems that children may face at home has an affect on failing schools and not just the teacher's union?
    Teachers are hired to turn out a product, that product being educated students. It is their job to educate. It is not their job to point fingers. If they are incapable of producing the product for which they have been hired, they need to be let go and someone who can produce better results brought in. At no point whatsoever though should a teacher who is failing to do their job get more money or more benefits. They haven't earned it.
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