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Thread: Armed Bystander Stops Stabbing Outside School

  1. #11
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    Re: Armed Bystander Stops Stabbing Outside School

    Quote Originally Posted by HonestJoe View Post
    I'm not convinced, given that the attacker clearly had it in his deranged mind to cause her harm while all she would have had on her mind would have been getting her kids to school. If he had a gun, he could have shot her (and who knows who else) before she'd even realised what he was doing.
    The fact is the victim of the attack was unarmed.Had she been armed the results would be different and most likley favorable towards the victim.
    That isn't really my point though. Regardless of the weapons involved, these kind of situations are unpredictable and always on a narrow line between lucky escape or massive disaster. The only thing I was actually pointing out was that if you promote the principal of all citizens being routinely armed, that means all citizens can be routinely armed. It may well turn out that there are a lot more people we would agree probably shouldn't be walking around with a deadly weapon that you might initially realise.
    Those people already do walk around with a weapon.The goal is to encourage law abiding citizens to arm themselves,the group of people in many major cities who are not armed.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Armed Bystander Stops Stabbing Outside School

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    The fact is the victim of the attack was unarmed.Had she been armed the results would be different and most likley favorable towards the victim.
    I disagree with the assumption. The outcome may have been different and that may have been better has she been armed but I don't think we can assume that is the case. Surely you can imagine how either of this couple pulling out a gun during their heated argument outside a school could have very easily had disastrous consequences.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Those people already do walk around with a weapon.The goal is to encourage law abiding citizens to arm themselves,the group of people in many major cities who are not armed.
    Not at all. Most Americans don't own or carry firearms. That's going to include a whole load who, for all sorts of reasons, probably shouldn't.

    The attacker in this incident is a classic example. He presumably didn't have a gun which would be why he resorted to using a knife and I'd hope we can agree that, in the context of this incident, it is better for everyone that he wasn't carrying a gun. It is also perfectly possible that prior to this incident he was (officially speaking) a law abiding citizen.

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    Re: Armed Bystander Stops Stabbing Outside School

    Quote Originally Posted by HonestJoe View Post
    I'm not convinced, given that the attacker clearly had it in his deranged mind to cause her harm while all she would have had on her mind would have been getting her kids to school. If he had a gun, he could have shot her (and who knows who else) before she'd even realised what he was doing.

    That isn't really my point though. Regardless of the weapons involved, these kind of situations are unpredictable and always on a narrow line between lucky escape or massive disaster. The only thing I was actually pointing out was that if you promote the principal of all citizens being routinely armed, that means all citizens can be routinely armed. It may well turn out that there are a lot more people we would agree probably shouldn't be walking around with a deadly weapon that you might initially realise.

    How we practically deal with these moral and legal contradictions and conflicts is a different matter but you can only properly address that from a position of honest realism, not wishful thinking and best case scenarios.
    Most states DO allow law abiding citizens to legally carry a concealed weapon, have for decades, and the streets have not been running with blood caused by overzealous gun owners. Most CCW holders are trained, safe, and very responsible. Statistics bear that out. It is also a truth that even though CW is ALLOWED not everyone chooses to carry a weapon. It is also and finally true that cities where law abiding citizens are denied CCW rights continually have the highest murder and violent crime rates.

    More guns in the hands of law abiding citizens is NEVER the problem.

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    Re: Armed Bystander Stops Stabbing Outside School

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Most states DO allow law abiding citizens to legally carry a concealed weapon, have for decades, and the streets have not been running with blood caused by overzealous gun owners. Most CCW holders are trained, safe, and very responsible. Statistics bear that out. It is also a truth that even though CW is ALLOWED not everyone chooses to carry a weapon.
    All of that is true but not really relevant to my point. I'm not saying private citizens shouldn't be allowed to have guns, I'm saying that carrying a gun isn't a magic solution to violent crime and that extending ownership of guns much wider than the largely knowledgeable and responsible people who currently have them to the wider population is going to inevitably include a whole load of people are neither knowledgeable or responsible.

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    It is also and finally true that cities where law abiding citizens are denied CCW rights continually have the highest murder and violent crime rates.
    Often true, though there remain questions whether there is a significant link between the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    More guns in the hands of law abiding citizens is NEVER the problem.
    Not withstanding accidents and suicides. A gun remains a dangerous tool.

    My key point is that a criminal is a law abiding citizen who has committed a crime. Until they've committed a crime, been caught and successfully convicted, they're indistinguishable from actual law abiding citizens. Similarly, many guns used in crimes will have started out as legally held guns.

    Bottom line - increasing legally held and used guns will also increase illegally held and used guns. That doesn't mean it shouldn't happen - the cost-benefit balance could well be an acceptable one - but it is dishonest to address the general question without also recognising the inevitable negative aspects of increasing private gun ownership however well intentioned it may be.

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    Re: Armed Bystander Stops Stabbing Outside School

    Quote Originally Posted by HonestJoe View Post
    All of that is true but not really relevant to my point. I'm not saying private citizens shouldn't be allowed to have guns, I'm saying that carrying a gun isn't a magic solution to violent crime and that extending ownership of guns much wider than the largely knowledgeable and responsible people who currently have them to the wider population is going to inevitably include a whole load of people are neither knowledgeable or responsible.

    Often true, though there remain questions whether there is a significant link between the two.

    Not withstanding accidents and suicides. A gun remains a dangerous tool.

    My key point is that a criminal is a law abiding citizen who has committed a crime. Until they've committed a crime, been caught and successfully convicted, they're indistinguishable from actual law abiding citizens. Similarly, many guns used in crimes will have started out as legally held guns.

    Bottom line - increasing legally held and used guns will also increase illegally held and used guns. That doesn't mean it shouldn't happen - the cost-benefit balance could well be an acceptable one - but it is dishonest to address the general question without also recognising the inevitable negative aspects of increasing private gun ownership however well intentioned it may be.
    Your "bottom line" is wrong. We have 4 decades of precedence.

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    Re: Armed Bystander Stops Stabbing Outside School

    Quote Originally Posted by HonestJoe View Post
    I disagree with the assumption. The outcome may have been different and that may have been better has she been armed but I don't think we can assume that is the case. Surely you can imagine how either of this couple pulling out a gun during their heated argument outside a school could have very easily had disastrous consequences.
    Had the woman been armed either she would have shot,tazered,stabbed or pepper sprayed her attacker or her attacker may have even left her alone if he knew she was armed.The fact is she was unarmed and nearly stabbed to death,had she been armed she most likely would have not been stabbed.

    Not at all. Most Americans don't own or carry firearms. That's going to include a whole load who, for all sorts of reasons, probably shouldn't.
    This is a country that has at least 270 million + firearms.Your telling me that most of those firearm owners do not walk around armed? Firearms are not the only weapons,there are also tazers,peppe spray,knives and other weapons.

    The attacker in this incident is a classic example. He presumably didn't have a gun which would be why he resorted to using a knife and I'd hope we can agree that, in the context of this incident, it is better for everyone that he wasn't carrying a gun. It is also perfectly possible that prior to this incident he was (officially speaking) a law abiding citizen.
    Who knows why he didn't have a gun.He may have never simply felt the need to own a gun.But it still doesn't change the fact the people we don't want armed are the ones who are most likely armed already.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Armed Bystander Stops Stabbing Outside School

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Had the woman been armed either she would have shot,tazered,stabbed or pepper sprayed her attacker or her attacker may have even left her alone if he knew she was armed.The fact is she was unarmed and nearly stabbed to death,had she been armed she most likely would have not been stabbed.
    Again, you're still making an assumption that the outcome had she been armed would almost certainly have been better but you have very limited basis on which to make that assumption. If he attacked her suddenly, there is no reason to believe she would have been able to even get her weapon before he stabbed her. I totally agree that it's possible her being armed could have resulted in a better outcome but I disagree with the assumption that it would have.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    This is a country that has at least 270 million + firearms.Your telling me that most of those firearm owners do not walk around armed? Firearms are not the only weapons,there are also tazers,peppe spray,knives and other weapons.
    No, I'm telling you that most Americans don't own firearms (and so by definition don't carry them) (Gun Ownership and Use in America). Of those who do, I suggest a significant proportion don't regularly carry firearms on their person (though that seems to be harder to find clear figures on).

    The fact is that a move to the position of all Americans carrying firearms (or indeed other weapons) would mean a huge increase in the overall number of weapons in circulation. I'm not stating that is a good or bad thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Who knows why he didn't have a gun.He may have never simply felt the need to own a gun.But it still doesn't change the fact the people we don't want armed are the ones who are most likely armed already.
    Some will be, some won't be. Arming more people in general will also inevetably arm more of the people who shouldn't have guns.

    Are you really so blinkered at to be unwilling to accept that there could be some negative factors, however minor, to the principal of vastly increasing the number of people who own and carry weapons? Yet again, I'm not saying those negative factors outweight the positive ones, only that an honest assessment of the question must address both equally.

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    Re: Armed Bystander Stops Stabbing Outside School

    Quote Originally Posted by HonestJoe View Post
    Again, you're still making an assumption that the outcome had she been armed would almost certainly have been better but you have very limited basis on which to make that assumption. If he attacked her suddenly, there is no reason to believe she would have been able to even get her weapon before he stabbed her. I totally agree that it's possible her being armed could have resulted in a better outcome but I disagree with the assumption that it would have.

    No, I'm telling you that most Americans don't own firearms (and so by definition don't carry them) (Gun Ownership and Use in America). Of those who do, I suggest a significant proportion don't regularly carry firearms on their person (though that seems to be harder to find clear figures on).

    The fact is that a move to the position of all Americans carrying firearms (or indeed other weapons) would mean a huge increase in the overall number of weapons in circulation. I'm not stating that is a good or bad thing.

    Some will be, some won't be. Arming more people in general will also inevetably arm more of the people who shouldn't have guns.

    Are you really so blinkered at to be unwilling to accept that there could be some negative factors, however minor, to the principal of vastly increasing the number of people who own and carry weapons? Yet again, I'm not saying those negative factors outweight the positive ones, only that an honest assessment of the question must address both equally.
    Who exactly is suggesting that all Americans should be armed or that we should be flooding the streets with more weapons? You keep setting up silly nonsense arguments to defeat...and you cant even defeat your own silly nonsense arguments.

    Look...Americans citizens have FOREVER had the right to keep and bear arms. Private citizens carry daily. Your 'concerns' are simple minded and silly.

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    Re: Armed Bystander Stops Stabbing Outside School

    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas_Smith View Post
    This is just one instance when the armed man had the necessary experience and control of his weapon to use it to good effect. How does this one instance measure in comparison to the many reported cases of people not using their weapons for good reasons?
    The guy did the right thing. It's important to remember that his rights were "infringed" by requiring him to get a permit and know how to use his weapon.

    What the headline doesn't say is "Person stabbed by armed criminal." Which is also important to remember.


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    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
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    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

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    Re: Armed Bystander Stops Stabbing Outside School

    Quote Originally Posted by HonestJoe View Post
    Again, you're still making an assumption that the outcome had she been armed would almost certainly have been better but you have very limited basis on which to make that assumption. If he attacked her suddenly, there is no reason to believe she would have been able to even get her weapon before he stabbed her. I totally agree that it's possible her being armed could have resulted in a better outcome but I disagree with the assumption that it would have.

    No, I'm telling you that most Americans don't own firearms (and so by definition don't carry them) (Gun Ownership and Use in America). Of those who do, I suggest a significant proportion don't regularly carry firearms on their person (though that seems to be harder to find clear figures on).

    The fact is that a move to the position of all Americans carrying firearms (or indeed other weapons) would mean a huge increase in the overall number of weapons in circulation. I'm not stating that is a good or bad thing.

    Some will be, some won't be. Arming more people in general will also inevetably arm more of the people who shouldn't have guns.

    Are you really so blinkered at to be unwilling to accept that there could be some negative factors, however minor, to the principal of vastly increasing the number of people who own and carry weapons? Yet again, I'm not saying those negative factors outweight the positive ones, only that an honest assessment of the question must address both equally.
    WTF is your point, are you ever going to make it? I know where jamesrage stands, what about you? Are you for citizens owning guns or not?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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