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Thread: GM Suspending Chevy Volt Output Due To Slow Sales

  1. #111
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    Re: GM Suspending Chevy Volt Output Due To Slow Sales

    The real issue with hybrids is that the car companies do not understand how to play to it's strengths.
    Why is hybrid technology used in trains and ships?
    Answer: It decouples the mechanical connection between the energy supply and the traction device.
    This allows the energy supply to run in it's sweet spot,
    and the traction device to supply power over it's full range of operations.
    Almost all of the current crop of hybrids use the technology as an assist to the mechanical linkage.

    So what are the strengths of Hybrid Technology?
    High Torque over the full range of the drive motor.
    Optimized Carnot efficiency from the heat engine.
    Capture of energy during vehicle slow downs.

    What are the weaknesses of hybrid technology.
    Total power out is no more than supply power + storage power (watts).
    Using high voltage in all weather environments.

    A better hybrid would have wheel motors to loose all of the mechanical linkages and transmission.
    The power supply would likely be a small turbo-diesel (great power to weight ratio, and high efficiency)
    The batteries would need to be short term ( under 5 minuets ) for acceleration and starting loads.
    Primary power supply needs to supply full cruse plus about 20% for battery charge.

    all wheel drive with a simplified design. put the torque on the ground where it is needed.
    As better technology becomes available, the primary power supply can be upgraded. (no mechanical linkage)

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    Re: GM Suspending Chevy Volt Output Due To Slow Sales

    how would GM know
    gm knows...

    gm says...

    LOL!

    what was gm retooling in march?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/03/bu...olet-volt.html

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    Re: GM Suspending Chevy Volt Output Due To Slow Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Please, let's deal with reality and not right wing fantasy. I may have exaggerated a bit, but the fact is that an all-in drilling approach would have a minimal effect on gas prices, and even then not for several years:

    We do have significant energy reserves when you factor in natural gas and coal, but our oil reserves are not very large relative to world supply -- which determines price.
    But that is the point. Which is why I stated energy, not oil specifically. Point is, virtually all our energy resources are tied up in one way or another. with the exceptions of those perceived as "green". Those, we subsidize while lobbying for ending subsidies on energy production. It takes decades to bring a nuclear plant on line, if at all. Obama issues a permit for a pipeline from La to Ok and than states that he has opened the line from Canada to La.

    The US is blessed with 3 major sources of energy, fossil, meaning coal and oil, ng, and nuclear, to to a lesser extent water. Most of the water resources have been utilized. More than enough to provide our needs for decades, maybe even while we do find a suitable alternative. These three are virtually at a standstill, the exception being the resources on private land, which apparently the greenies have not yet figured out a way to stop.

    The argument that opening new supply lines does not decrease prices is contrary to what I learned in economics 101. Simply, if you have one barrel of oil, and 2 people want it, the oil goes to the highest bidder. Put 2 more barrels into the mix, and the bidding war shifts to the seller. It doesn't matter whether the barrels and bidders are located in Tennessee or Bangladesh, or both. I don't understand the argument that we are in a world market, which is stating the obvious, and arguing that since this so, that increased production anywhere will not alter the equation. Once again, if the world markets require a billion barrels of oil, and 900 million are produced, the oil goes to the highest bidder. If the production increases to 1.1 billion, then the sellers do the bidding.

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    Re: GM Suspending Chevy Volt Output Due To Slow Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    There are already rumors that GM will need another bailout. What an irredeemable mess.

    They need MORE money to build ANOTHER factory in China?

  5. #115
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    Re: GM Suspending Chevy Volt Output Due To Slow Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by longview View Post
    A better hybrid would have wheel motors to loose all of the mechanical linkages and transmission.
    The power supply would likely be a small turbo-diesel (great power to weight ratio, and high efficiency)
    The batteries would need to be short term ( under 5 minuets ) for acceleration and starting loads.
    Primary power supply needs to supply full cruse plus about 20% for battery charge.

    all wheel drive with a simplified design. put the torque on the ground where it is needed.
    As better technology becomes available, the primary power supply can be upgraded. (no mechanical linkage)
    I would like to see this too. This combines the best qualities of both power sources. I like the Volt because it operates more like a diesel-electric locomotive, maximizing the efficiency of the diesel. Not all hybrids do that and I don't know why.
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    Re: GM Suspending Chevy Volt Output Due To Slow Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    It takes decades to bring a nuclear plant on line, if at all.
    Current nuclear construction times are far shorter than that (bold is mine).
    Construction delays can add significantly to the cost of a plant. Because a power plant does not earn income during construction, longer construction times translate directly into higher finance charges. Modern nuclear power plants are planned for construction in four years or less (42 months for CANDU ACR-1000, 60 months from order to operation for an AP1000, 48 months from first concrete to operation for an EPR and 45 months for an ESBWR)[24] as opposed to over a decade for some previous plants.
    Economics of new nuclear power plants - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    The argument that opening new supply lines does not decrease prices is contrary to what I learned in economics 101. Simply, if you have one barrel of oil, and 2 people want it, the oil goes to the highest bidder. Put 2 more barrels into the mix, and the bidding war shifts to the seller. It doesn't matter whether the barrels and bidders are located in Tennessee or Bangladesh, or both. I don't understand the argument that we are in a world market, which is stating the obvious, and arguing that since this so, that increased production anywhere will not alter the equation. Once again, if the world markets require a billion barrels of oil, and 900 million are produced, the oil goes to the highest bidder. If the production increases to 1.1 billion, then the sellers do the bidding.
    Sorry, but oil prices are determined on the intl market. More drilling in the US will have little effect on gas prices.

    There is no remotely plausible story where the U.S. could become energy independent (even if we drilled everywhere), but even if we no longer needed imports oil prices would still be determined on the world market. Oil companies would export their oil if they could a higher price in Europe or Asia then they were getting in the United States.
    Oil Prices Are Determined in the World Market: It's Not Just Something That President Obama Says | Beat the Press

    And here's 20 experts that will tell you more domestic oil drilling will not help:

    Given that changes in U.S. oil production don’t move gasoline prices, it should be clear that U.S. government policies related to drilling are of even smaller consequence. Indeed, 92 percent of economists surveyed by the Chicago Booth School of Business agreed this week that “changes in U.S. gasoline prices over the past 10 years have predominantly been due to market factors rather than U.S. federal economic or energy policies.”

    Still not convinced? How about another 20 economists and analysts from across the political spectrum who will tell you the same thing:

    Ken Green, American Enterprise Institute, “If the U.S. produced more of its own oil, it would probably reduce imports, but it’s not likely that it would reduce prices … We probably cannot produce so much oil to exert downward pressure on prices compared to the world market.”
    Peter Van Doren and Jerry Taylor, Cato Institute: “Sure, more domestic oil creates the possibility of fewer refined imports tied to the price of Brent crude, but given that the price of Brent sets the price for crude generally, the result would be more profit for domestic crude producers rather than significantly lower gasoline prices for Americans (not that there’s anything wrong with that).”

    Doug Holtz-Eakin, American Action Forum: “Domestic action to increase production will not lower gas prices set on a global market.”
    Christopher Knittel, MIT economist: “There are not many markets where the United States can’t impose its will on market outcomes … This is one we can’t, and it’s hard for the average American to understand that and it’s easy for politicians to feed off that.”
    Pinelopi Goldberg, Yale economist: “US domestic policy has only tiny effect on the world price of oil. US foreign policy is probably more relevant than energy policy.”

    Steve Koonin, Institute for Defense Analyses: “When you hear the international oil companies advocating for energy independence, it’s really about making money, which isn’t a bad thing … If they produce a million more barrels a day, they’re not going to change the global price much. And since they know the global price is going up, they’ll just make more money. There’s nothing wrong with that, but it doesn’t solve the price problem or the greenhouse gas problem.”
    Michael Levi, Council on Foreign Relations: “The amount of oil you produce at home doesn’t affect the price … You can lower your vulnerability to price by lowering your consumption of oil, but not by increasing your production.”
    Severin Borenstein, UC Berkeley economist: “Producing more oil domestically will enrich the U.S. economy, particularly U.S. oil companies and their workers. With oil so valuable, it may be a good idea, though the value must be weighed against environmental consequences. But it will have no discernible impact on gas prices, because it will change the world’s supply/demand balance for oil by less than 2 or 3 percent over a decade or more.”
    David Peterson, Duke statistician: “U.S. production and demand have little to do with the price of gasoline in the U.S.”
    Edward Melnick, NYU statistician: When U.S. production goes up, the price of gas “is certainly not going down … The data does not suggest that whatsoever.”
    David Sandalow, Department of Energy: “Drilling offshore to lower oil prices is like walking an extra 20 feet per day to lose weight. … It’s just not going to make much of a difference.”
    Tom Kloza, Oil Price Information Service: “This drill drill drill thing is tired … It’s a simplistic way of looking for a solution that doesn’t exist.”
    Richard Newell, Energy Information Administration: “We do not project additional volumes of oil that could flow from greater access to oil resources on Federal lands to have a large impact on prices given the globally integrated nature of the world oil market.”
    Dean Baker, Center for Economic and Policy Research: “There is almost no disagreement among economists that drilling everywhere all the time offshore will have almost no impact on the price of gas in the United States. The reason is that we have a world market for oil. The additional oil that might come from offshore drilling is a drop in the bucket in a world oil market of almost 90 million barrels a day.”
    Lou Crandall, Wrightson ICAP LLC: “Higher oil prices today are a global phenomenon, and the additional supply from increased drilling by the U.S. would not alter the global balance of supply and demand greatly. Gasoline prices at the pump would be higher either way. The only difference is that a somewhat larger share of the revenue would accrue to domestic interests (governmental and private) rather than to foreign suppliers.”

    Paul Bledsoe, Bipartisan Policy Center: “The notion that somehow we can produce so much domestically that we will move the global price is incorrect.”

    Tom O’Donnell, The New School: “The amount of extra oil that the U.S. would produce, as far as affecting the world price of oil, is almost insignificant.”‘

    Deborah Gordon, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace: “We can drill doggedly in our own backyards, but the price of gasoline will remain more a matter of speculation over externally-driven factors than tapping new sources of oil at home.”

    Joseph Dukert, energy analyst: “Americans tend to exaggerate the price effects of fluctuations in domestic production in relation to the total amount of oil in global trade. On the larger stage, the perception of geopolitical risks is more important.”

    Phyllis Martin, Energy Information Administration: “In 2009, the U.S. produced about 7 percent of what was produced in the entire world, so increasing the oil production in the U.S. is not going to make much of a difference in world markets and world prices … It just gets lost. It’s not that much.”
    20 Experts Who Say Drilling Won't Lower Gas Prices | ThinkProgress
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    Re: GM Suspending Chevy Volt Output Due To Slow Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    Are you saying that you believe that oil is an infinite product?
    The untapped and yet to be discovered supply is equivalent in energy to everything that grows on Earth burning for thousands of years. It shouldn't be hard for scientists to figure out the amount of biomass that was laid down, but they won't tell us. Why won't they? It should be as easy as finding out how much sunken Spanish gold there is, since the Spaniards kept records ("provenance"--from the movie The Deep) of the ships and cargo they lost. Let's hear the estimate based on biomass instead of the insufficient method of basing it on our still-primitive drilling technology. Beware of the Big Oil-Academic Complex. Lies about scarcity give them an excuse to gouge us on prices.
    On the outside, trickling down on the insiders.
    We won't live free until the 1% live in fear.
    Hey, richboys! Imagine the boot of democracy stomping on your faces, forever.

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    Re: GM Suspending Chevy Volt Output Due To Slow Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by longview View Post
    The real issue with hybrids is that the car companies do not understand how to play to it's strengths.
    Why is hybrid technology used in trains and ships?
    Answer: It decouples the mechanical connection between the energy supply and the traction device.
    This allows the energy supply to run in it's sweet spot,
    and the traction device to supply power over it's full range of operations.
    Almost all of the current crop of hybrids use the technology as an assist to the mechanical linkage.

    So what are the strengths of Hybrid Technology?
    High Torque over the full range of the drive motor.
    Optimized Carnot efficiency from the heat engine.
    Capture of energy during vehicle slow downs.

    What are the weaknesses of hybrid technology.
    Total power out is no more than supply power + storage power (watts).
    Using high voltage in all weather environments.

    A better hybrid would have wheel motors to loose all of the mechanical linkages and transmission.
    The power supply would likely be a small turbo-diesel (great power to weight ratio, and high efficiency)
    The batteries would need to be short term ( under 5 minuets ) for acceleration and starting loads.
    Primary power supply needs to supply full cruse plus about 20% for battery charge.

    all wheel drive with a simplified design. put the torque on the ground where it is needed.
    As better technology becomes available, the primary power supply can be upgraded. (no mechanical linkage)
    Excellent Post!
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: GM Suspending Chevy Volt Output Due To Slow Sales

    They want to downsize manhood; that's a given throughout the Nannystate agenda. Spanking us bad boys and pushing us into wuss wagons.
    On the outside, trickling down on the insiders.
    We won't live free until the 1% live in fear.
    Hey, richboys! Imagine the boot of democracy stomping on your faces, forever.

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    Re: GM Suspending Chevy Volt Output Due To Slow Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by PrometheusBound View Post
    They want to downsize manhood; that's a given throughout the Nannystate agenda. Spanking us bad boys and pushing us into wuss wagons.
    It does seem that way, but there is no reason a hybrid could not be a big 4X4 truck with lots of
    giddy-up. A hybrid could also be an incredible sports car with all wheel drive and full low end torque.
    If done right, we would have to rethink all of the conventional wisdom about cars.

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