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17 Afghans beheaded in insurgent attack on party

VanceMack said:
Perhaps my single biggest complaint against GWB...we 'won' the war against Afghanistan 10 years ago. It wasnt and isnt our job to transform 'stan or any other country. The Taliban were ousted, a government was elected. We should have given them 3 years to train up their own forces and dictate the course of their future. If they want to sit back and allow a bunch of backwards ass mountain dwellers to turn the clock back on their country 5-6 hundred years...**** em...thats their business. If the citizens of 'stan want to accept it...great. If they want to fight it, even better. We should have been out at least 6 years ago.
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Edited for accuracy :mrgreen:


EDIT:

apdst said:
Um, you're excused. Not all of the Mujas formed the Taliban. The Muja force that were commanded by Massoud became the Northern Alliance.
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Which is (the Northern Alliance) just as bad as the Taliban in many respects.
 
The US gave financial assistance to Afghan anti-Soviet militants via ISI and occasionally through independent routes which was a condition of the compact with Pakistan which took on considerable risk by allowing their Soviet occupying neighbors to be attacked by militants trained in their territory. That funding was then used to purchase weapons, munitions, medical equipment, food, trucks, etc which was funneled to a variety of groups some representing the Afghan government in exile, some went to Hekmatyer, the Islamic Dawah Group (which is now a political party), etc. The umbrella group which received the lions share of support was called the Islamic Unity of Afghanistan Mujahadeen and consisted of a variety of Islamist, Traditionalist, and Nationalist groups many of whom have reemerged as political parties in Afghanistan today, others yes have become part of the network of opposition forces such as Hekmatyer's forces.

However the US never had more than a half dozen field agents in Afghanistan and NW Pakistan, it kept its touch to a minimum, and funding channels were rarely chosen by the US. Nor did any direct support ever go to al-Qaeda or the Taliban, the former mostly fought on funds raised from their own charitable groups. Which was true of most Arab groups that went to Pakistan and Afghanistan.
 
apdst said:
Ok, look. Here's the reality: The folks we supported didn't evolve into the Taliban.
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Uhhhh yes they did. To state otherwise is entirely ignorant.
"The Taliban are one of the mujahideen ("holy warriors" or "freedom fighters") groups that formed during the war against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan (1979-89)"

Read more: The Taliban — Infoplease.com The Taliban — Infoplease.com

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=5439
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Uhhhh yes they did. To state otherwise is entirely ignorant.
"The Taliban are one of the mujahideen ("holy warriors" or "freedom fighters") groups that formed during the war against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan (1979-89)"

Read more: The Taliban — Infoplease.com The Taliban — Infoplease.com

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=5439
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Right, the units that evolved into the Taliban were only PART of the Mujahadeen. The entire Mujahadeen didn't evolve imto the Taliban
 
apdst said:
Right, the units that evolved into the Taliban were only PART of the Mujahadeen. The entire Mujahadeen didn't evolve imto the Taliban
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But parts of the Mujhadeen where... They both were fundamental Islamic fighters.. And we supported them. Then they turned around and bit us in the ass...
 
TheDemSocialist said:
But parts of the Mujhadeen where... They both were fundamental Islamic fighters.. And we supported them. Then they turned around and bit us in the ass...
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We never supported the muja units that became the Taliban.
 
apdst said:
We never supported the muja units that became the Taliban.
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Uhhh yes we did...
We supported the whole Mujahideen. Hell we even supported Osama who then created Al Qaeda...
 
A Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled Hosseini is a novel that tracks three generations of Afghan women: one came of age under the king, another came of age under the Soviets, and the third came of age under the Taliban.

It is probably the most depressing story I've ever read, and it's difficult to contemplate the story without wanting to do something about it. Sharia law would shame a troop of baboons, and it is hard to see how those animals can ever be civilized without totally crushing the cesspool they call a culture. I recommend the book to anyone with the misguided notion that these creatures can be treated as a civilized people.
 
Sherman123 said:
Those men in the picture are not the Taliban.
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Dont let facts get in the way of a good anti-Reagan 'gotcha' moment. Never mind that the US primarily supported the actual Taliban groups in 1994-1997. Under the...what was that guys name then...the president...from like...1992 to 2000...

oh well...never mind. Its not important...
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Uhhh yes we did...
We supported the whole Mujahideen. Hell we even supported Osama who then created Al Qaeda...
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Should be a piece-a-cake to come up with a credible source.

I'll help you a little by pointing out that "Charlie Wilson's" war, widely accepted as a definitive work about American involvment in the Afghan-Soviet War says you're wrong.
 
apdst said:
Should be a piece-a-cake to come up with a credible source.

I'll help you a little by pointing out that "Charlie Wilson's" war, widely accepted as a definitive work about American involvment in the Afghan-Soviet War says you're wrong.
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Operation Cyclone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"he U.S. offered two packages of economic assistance and military sales to support Pakistan's role in the war against the Soviet troops in Afghanistan. The first six-year assistance package (1981–87) amounted to US$3.2 billion, equally divided between economic assistance and military sales. The U.S. also sold 40 F-16 aircraft to Pakistan during 1983–87 at a cost of $1.2 billion outside the assistance package. The second six-year assistance package (1987–93) amounted to $4.2 billion. Out of this, $2.28 billion were allocated for economic assistance in the form of grants or loan that carried the interest rate of 2–3 per cent. The rest of the allocation ($1.74 billion) was in the form of credit for military purchases."

Clinton admits to US support for Bin Laden & creation of Taliban | Rupee News
"The Taliban was a construct of the CIA and was armed by the CIA….Republican Congressman Dana Rohrabacher
It seemed like a great idea, back in the ’80s to– embolden– and train and equip– Taliban, mujahidin, jihadists against the Soviet Union, which had invaded Afghanistan. And with our help, and with the Pakistani support– this group– including, at that time, Bin Laden, defeated the Soviet Union. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, Oct. 7th, 2009"

al-Qaeda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"U.S. government financial support for the Afghan Islamic militants was substantial. Aid to Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, an Afghan mujahideen leader. and founder and leader of the Hezb-e Islami radical Islamic militant faction, alone amounted "by the most conservative estimates" to $600 million. Later, in the early 1990s, after the U.S. had withdrawn support, Hekmatyar "worked closely" with bin Laden."
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Operation Cyclone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"he U.S. offered two packages of economic assistance and military sales to support Pakistan's role in the war against the Soviet troops in Afghanistan. The first six-year assistance package (1981–87) amounted to US$3.2 billion, equally divided between economic assistance and military sales. The U.S. also sold 40 F-16 aircraft to Pakistan during 1983–87 at a cost of $1.2 billion outside the assistance package. The second six-year assistance package (1987–93) amounted to $4.2 billion. Out of this, $2.28 billion were allocated for economic assistance in the form of grants or loan that carried the interest rate of 2–3 per cent. The rest of the allocation ($1.74 billion) was in the form of credit for military purchases."

Clinton admits to US support for Bin Laden & creation of Taliban | Rupee News
"The Taliban was a construct of the CIA and was armed by the CIA….Republican Congressman Dana Rohrabacher
It seemed like a great idea, back in the ’80s to– embolden– and train and equip– Taliban, mujahidin, jihadists against the Soviet Union, which had invaded Afghanistan. And with our help, and with the Pakistani support– this group– including, at that time, Bin Laden, defeated the Soviet Union. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, Oct. 7th, 2009"

al-Qaeda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"U.S. government financial support for the Afghan Islamic militants was substantial. Aid to Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, an Afghan mujahideen leader. and founder and leader of the Hezb-e Islami radical Islamic militant faction, alone amounted "by the most conservative estimates" to $600 million. Later, in the early 1990s, after the U.S. had withdrawn support, Hekmatyar "worked closely" with bin Laden."
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So much for credible sources. Thanks for the effort, though.
 
apdst said:
A paper on Pakistan's foreign policy? Keep trying. Even a blind hog can find an acorn, sometimes.
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:roll:
So you actually believe we did not support the whole Mujhadeen itself? We did not support Osama Bin Laden. I think its about time you point to your sources...
 
TheDemSocialist said:
:roll:
So you actually believe we did not support the whole Mujhadeen itself? We did not support Osama Bin Laden. I think its about time you point to your sources...
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I don't believe it...I know it. It's an historical fact.
 
apdst said:
I don't believe it...I know it. It's an historical fact.
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Not outside your head. Out here in the rest of the world, the US was instrumental in the support and growth of the Mujahideen.
 
apdst said:
I've already given you a source.
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Telling me to see a movie i already have seen is not a source.
How about you should some scholarly or historical research? Documents. You know things that can back up your claims. Not a hollywood movie. Thats like me in a debate about Che to go watch the movie Che.. Cmon get real.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Operation Cyclone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"he U.S. offered two packages of economic assistance and military sales to support Pakistan's role in the war against the Soviet troops in Afghanistan. The first six-year assistance package (1981–87) amounted to US$3.2 billion, equally divided between economic assistance and military sales. The U.S. also sold 40 F-16 aircraft to Pakistan during 1983–87 at a cost of $1.2 billion outside the assistance package. The second six-year assistance package (1987–93) amounted to $4.2 billion. Out of this, $2.28 billion were allocated for economic assistance in the form of grants or loan that carried the interest rate of 2–3 per cent. The rest of the allocation ($1.74 billion) was in the form of credit for military purchases."

Clinton admits to US support for Bin Laden & creation of Taliban | Rupee News
"The Taliban was a construct of the CIA and was armed by the CIA….Republican Congressman Dana Rohrabacher
It seemed like a great idea, back in the ’80s to– embolden– and train and equip– Taliban, mujahidin, jihadists against the Soviet Union, which had invaded Afghanistan. And with our help, and with the Pakistani support– this group– including, at that time, Bin Laden, defeated the Soviet Union. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, Oct. 7th, 2009"

al-Qaeda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"U.S. government financial support for the Afghan Islamic militants was substantial. Aid to Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, an Afghan mujahideen leader. and founder and leader of the Hezb-e Islami radical Islamic militant faction, alone amounted "by the most conservative estimates" to $600 million. Later, in the early 1990s, after the U.S. had withdrawn support, Hekmatyar "worked closely" with bin Laden."
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1. No one is denying that the US funneled money to Afghan militants in the 1980's, what people are denying is that we directly funded the Taliban which is impossible since the group did not exist until the early 1990's. Secondly the claim that we indirectly funded the Taliban is misleading since we assisted in funding a huge swathe of militant groups, some of whom joined the Taliban, but most of whom did not.

2. I don't know what 'Rupee News' is but the US did not fund Osama Bin Laden at any point, nor was the Taliban an 'American construction' that is nonsense.

3. Gulbuddin Hekmatyar is not al-Qaeda, and Hezb-e Islami is both a political party that is represented in the Afghan Parliament, and a militant group that clashes with al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and ISAF forces. Gulbuddin probably did work with al-Qaeda to a degree, especially when it came to trying to oust Massoud from Kabul and Mazari Sharif.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Telling me to see a movie i already have seen is not a source.
How about you should some scholarly or historical research? Documents. You know things that can back up your claims. Not a hollywood movie. Thats like me in a debate about Che to go watch the movie Che.. Cmon get real.
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I'm talking about the book, dude! :rofl
 
Sherman-
the other stans sent fighters to Afghanistan to fight the Soviet invasion, they also trained in the camps both in Pakistan and Afghanistan along with many other Radicals from a dozen or so nations. Laying the revolutionary efforts of the surrounding region at the feet of the Taliban is flawed. The reasons the Mujahideen fought the Soviet now Russians doesn't end at the Amu Dar'ya River.

You confuse common goals with a master mind nation. We did that with the early commies. China and Russia were not buddies.

Apdst-
The CIA funneled a great deal of money, weapons and other aid to the Pastuns, from the Pastuns arose the Taliwackers. You are confusing al-Queeras almost exclusive 'private' funding with the Pastuns who were so more than happy to take anyone's money, weapons and ammo.

Now of course we do the twist to have deniability on where our 'secret' help went.

But back to the issue we are discussing, a decade of 'democracy' elections, millions in training the Afghans, and they still shoot us. Somehow we always miss the point with nations, hell tribal regions more like it. Some folks just don't want Pepsi and blue jeans, don't want women to be equal and don't give a damn what the rest of the world thinks.
 
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