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Thread: 17 Afghans beheaded in insurgent attack on party

  1. #61
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    Re: 17 Afghans beheaded in insurgent attack on party

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Bla...bla...bla...whatever! There's no escaping the fact that the true breeders of the Taliban were the Soviets and the struggle in Afghanistan, during the 80's was gainst Communist oppression of the world.
    "The Taliban was a construct of the CIA and was armed by the CIA"….Republican Congressman Dana Rohrabacher

    "It seemed like a great idea, back in the ’80s to– embolden– and train and equip– Taliban, mujahidin, jihadists against the Soviet Union, which had invaded Afghanistan. And with our help, and with the Pakistani support– this group– including, at that time, Bin Laden, defeated the Soviet Union." Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, Oct. 7th, 2009
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    Re: 17 Afghans beheaded in insurgent attack on party

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    "The Taliban was a construct of the CIA and was armed by the CIA"….Republican Congressman Dana Rohrabacher

    "It seemed like a great idea, back in the ’80s to– embolden– and train and equip– Taliban, mujahidin, jihadists against the Soviet Union, which had invaded Afghanistan. And with our help, and with the Pakistani support– this group– including, at that time, Bin Laden, defeated the Soviet Union." Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, Oct. 7th, 2009
    Just because those two individuals misspoke or said what they said, whatever the case may be does not make it true. The evidence against it being true is massive. Now if we want to talk about US policy towards Afghanistan during the 1990's from end of GHWB's term through Clinton's term that is a different story. We missed a huge opportunity in Afghanistan under Clinton and became a little too close to the Taliban for comfort. That is much less a result of an active approach by Clinton, and more to do with pretty much ceding Afghan policy to the State Department and other aging bureaucrats who didn't understand the situation and ****ed things up, that being said Clinton was appraised of these problems more than once and did little to nothing to intervene.

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    Re: 17 Afghans beheaded in insurgent attack on party

    Blah,blah, blah-

    Books can have highly biased authors, I have read a few, some are written by folks trying to justify their actions and most often mistakes.

    In a classic case of the Gawds laughing at our folly, the Soviets instituted many reforms, such as women as equals with the right to vote, ending forced marriages, crack down on warlords, road and medical improvements all of which inspired a tremendous backlash. (and we are trying to do the exact same thing)

    If you invest a few dollars more and buy a complete history of Afghanistan you would find a violent history were revenge killings, coups, and assassinations are far more common than peaceful succession. Afghanistan wasn't breeding boy scouts before the soviets, ain't one now.

    Trying to blame the Soviets for the Taliban flies in the face of a long and violent history for the tribes of the Hindu Kush and high desert plateau.

    They are one in a continuing line... do note I said continuing....

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    Re: 17 Afghans beheaded in insurgent attack on party

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Blah,blah, blah-

    Books can have highly biased authors, I have read a few, some are written by folks trying to justify their actions and most often mistakes.

    In a classic case of the Gawds laughing at our folly, the Soviets instituted many reforms, such as women as equals with the right to vote, ending forced marriages, crack down on warlords, road and medical improvements all of which inspired a tremendous backlash. (and we are trying to do the exact same thing)

    If you invest a few dollars more and buy a complete history of Afghanistan you would find a violent history were revenge killings, coups, and assassinations are far more common than peaceful succession. Afghanistan wasn't breeding boy scouts before the soviets, ain't one now.

    Trying to blame the Soviets for the Taliban flies in the face of a long and violent history for the tribes of the Hindu Kush and high desert plateau.

    They are one in a continuing line... do note I said continuing....
    Afghanistan has a complex history, and was not in fact a failed or disparate state before the modern era. However while the Soviets brought social reforms, let's not forget what else they brought.

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    Re: 17 Afghans beheaded in insurgent attack on party

    There was no such thing as the Taliban until after the Soviets left and civil war broke out in Afghanistan between rival war lords. Basically they are a branch or an offshoot of Alquiada and didn't really run Afghanistan until 1994. Clinton supported the Taliban for a while hoping they would bring a stable government to the country. They may indeed have started out as freedom fighters but they have morphed into what they are now. It may be a case of "absolute power corrupts absolutely" and I pity the people of Afghanistan if we pull out and let them take the country over again but we can't stay there forever. The taliban have a saying, "Americans have watches but we have time".

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    Re: 17 Afghans beheaded in insurgent attack on party

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    There was no such thing as the Taliban until after the Soviets left and civil war broke out in Afghanistan between rival war lords. Basically they are a branch or an offshoot of Alquiada and didn't really run Afghanistan until 1994. Clinton supported the Taliban for a while hoping they would bring a stable government to the country. They may indeed have started out as freedom fighters but they have morphed into what they are now. It may be a case of "absolute power corrupts absolutely" and I pity the people of Afghanistan if we pull out and let them take the country over again but we can't stay there forever. The taliban have a saying, "Americans have watches but we have time".
    Eh, there are some details and characterization wrong with your narrative. For example the Taliban is not an off-shot of al-Qaeda, among other things.

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    Re: 17 Afghans beheaded in insurgent attack on party

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Eh, there are some details and characterization wrong with your narrative. For example the Taliban is not an off-shot of al-Qaeda, among other things.
    OK if you want to be more precise they grew together like 2 trees with one trunk, better?

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    Re: 17 Afghans beheaded in insurgent attack on party

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    OK if you want to be more precise they grew together like 2 trees with one trunk, better?
    Still not really true. One is a much more sophisticated, internationalist, and Arab group that was forged in the Afghan War but was a very separate and distinct organization with little overlap with the Taliban. The Taliban was formed in the 1990's by religious students and ex-militia fighters from various groups to try and bring Islamist law and order 'back' to Afghan society and opposed other militant groups as a result, and was also almost entirely Afghan in its initial objectives and recruitment base. Their relationship with al-Qaeda became a positive one, but they were fundamentally different groups.

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    Re: 17 Afghans beheaded in insurgent attack on party

    Afghanistan wasn't a nation before the modern era, 1500's.

    it wasn't until the 19th century closed that a true Afghanistan emerged from warring shahs, generals, and foreign armies. Even then it wasn't a united nation as we would think but an affiliation, how tight or loose more dependent on the central ruler than any sense of national unity.

    Now I didn't mention the Soviets to praise them, but to point out they stirred such ire by doing what we are attempting in the way of social reform. Not sure why we think we can do any better.

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    Re: 17 Afghans beheaded in insurgent attack on party

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Still not really true. One is a much more sophisticated, internationalist, and Arab group that was forged in the Afghan War but was a very separate and distinct organization with little overlap with the Taliban. The Taliban was formed in the 1990's by religious students and ex-militia fighters from various groups to try and bring Islamist law and order 'back' to Afghan society and opposed other militant groups as a result, and was also almost entirely Afghan in its initial objectives and recruitment base. Their relationship with al-Qaeda became a positive one, but they were fundamentally different groups.
    In 1994, bin Laden moved to Afghanistan and he used his wealth to finance the Taliban in the Afghan civil war. He bacame soul mates if you will with Mullah Ohmar and their ideologies merged, they matured into their present forms together and both are radical Wahabbe cult and believe in sharia law. They are like the army and the navy in this country,separate organizations but both represent the same country.
    Last edited by sawyerloggingon; 08-28-12 at 01:14 AM.

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