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Thread: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

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    All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    When so many Americans have the idea that "Only if I had a gun with me, I could have stopped X from happening", the real world sometimes shows a different reality.

    All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    NEW YORK — All nine people wounded in a New York shootout between a gunman who killed a former co-worker and officers who responded to the incident were hit by police fire, officials said Saturday.

    The shootout erupted Friday morning in front of the iconic Empire State Building in the heart of Manhattan after Jeffrey Johnson, a former employee at a women's apparel business, killed a former colleague.


    NY Daily News
    Six of the nine wounded bystanders in the wild Empire State Building shooting were struck by bullet fragments as cops fired 16 shots at a cold-blooded killer in a grey suit.

    Three other victims were hit by bullets Friday morning when two officers opened fire on Jeffrey Johnson after the murderer pointed his .45-caliber handgun at them, NYPD Commissioner Raymond Kelly said Saturday.

    Johnson, wearing a suit and tie, never fired a shot as the officers approached him shortly after 9 a.m. outside the 102-story tourist attraction, Kelly said.
    The killer had one round left in his pistol so it appears to be "suicide by cop" after he committed a murder.

    One of the officers reacts quickly and brings his weapon to bear on the killer, the other one - not so good, his first reaction is to move behind his partner before drawing his pistol. MY point is to bring to everyone's attention the reality that your personal reaction at the moment you realise death is looming before you may not be the reaction you think you will have.
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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    Thanks for the video. New York Cities finest ...

    A L

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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    When so many Americans have the idea that "Only if I had a gun with me, I could have stopped X from happening", the real world sometimes shows a different reality.

    .

    I'll throw in here what I posted on this subject in another thread...

    Depends. Cops from some dept's score 91% hits (on the PERP) in actual shootings... in other places (oddly enough, often those where citizens are mostly disarmed) some departments score as low as 17% in actual shootings.

    For SC CWP, at the time I did it, you had to put over half your rounds into the K-zone of a silouette at up to 15 or 20 yards (I forget which). There were six other people taking the course that day when I did it, the only one that had any problem doing this was an older lady who had never shot much. The instructor went over some things with her (grip, trigger squeeze, sight picture, etc) and she qual'd on her second try.

    I put every round through the K-zone, and so did the guy next to me. Of course, I'd been shooting since I was knee-high, and when I was a cop I routinely out-shot the Department instructor at the range. Not bragging, just fact. In my estimation the shooters on the line in my CCW class were mostly on-par with the cops I shot with when I was doing the LE thing.

    Around here, it is just kind of expected that you know how to shoot already if you show up and apply for an LE job. If you don't already shoot fairly well, you get some funny and/or exasperated looks.

    I've never lived in NYC but I have friends who have, some of whom were involved in LE or Military activities in or around the city. They've told me that it is astonishing how very very few NY'ers know how to DO anything.... swim, drive, operate "heavy" machinery like a backhoe, fix anything mechanical... or shoot any kind of firearm. According to some of my sources most NYPD recruits have never fired a handgun before joining and many have never fired ANY actual firearm. This kinda explains a lot, in terms of NYC's poor record on cop shoots.

    Last I heard, they were also using those damn 9-pound "NY triggers" on their 9mm Glocks, which is a good way to ruin even a good shooter's aim. They did this in response to an excessive number of negligent discharges resulting in injury... but the solution to that is good training not heavy-ass triggers.

    Studies have been done about what sort of person does well in a shootout, hitting their man and putting him down without hitting bystanders. The conclusion was that the best shooters in real shootouts have some or most of the following traits:

    1. Was a shooter before joining LE.
    2. Experienced Hunter.
    3. Engaged in competitive target shooting.
    4. Engaged in precision shooting competition.
    5. Handloader/Reloader (shows a depth of involvement in shooting activities)
    6. Exhibits skill-acquisition behavior in other areas (ie possesses other skills like driving, swimming, martial arts/boxing/wrestling, biking, etc)
    7. Exhibits ability to think on his feet and/or function under stress.
    8. Military background, especially combat arms.

    These were some of the characteristics some departments looked for in special-operation units that were likely to engage in shoot outs with violent perps... someone with 3 or 4 or more of the above traits typically did well in such engagements.

    It's hard to be sure who will keep their stuff wired tight in a fight until it actually happens... but statistically CCW'ers shoot far fewer bystanders than cops per-capita so it isn't the CCW'ers we need to worry about....

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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    Goshin wrote
    statistically CCW'ers shoot far fewer bystanders than cops per-capita so it isn't the CCW'ers we need to worry about....
    Can you support your statement with a link or two to some academic study(s)?
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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    was the department using FMJ rounds? were they passing through the target and hitting bystanders?

    I can't imagine that NYC would do that , but I guess the question has to be asked...

    second question is WTF? a simple double tap would have saved lives, instead of spray and pray ...
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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    It appears that the wounded bystanders were hit by fragments, not direct bullets. Might have been unavoidable but that had to be a lot of shots fired to hit 9 people with fragments. Perhaps the NYPD needs more range time.

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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    When so many Americans have the idea that "Only if I had a gun with me, I could have stopped X from happening", the real world sometimes shows a different reality.

    The killer had one round left in his pistol so it appears to be "suicide by cop" after he committed a murder.

    One of the officers reacts quickly and brings his weapon to bear on the killer, the other one - not so good, his first reaction is to move behind his partner before drawing his pistol. MY point is to bring to everyone's attention the reality that your personal reaction at the moment you realise death is looming before you may not be the reaction you think you will have.
    Really, it's a pretty poor example of police training. I'm surprised there's not more criticism coming their way, actually.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    When so many Americans have the idea that "Only if I had a gun with me, I could have stopped X from happening", the real world sometimes shows a different reality.





    NY Daily News


    The killer had one round left in his pistol so it appears to be "suicide by cop" after he committed a murder.

    One of the officers reacts quickly and brings his weapon to bear on the killer, the other one - not so good, his first reaction is to move behind his partner before drawing his pistol. MY point is to bring to everyone's attention the reality that your personal reaction at the moment you realise death is looming before you may not be the reaction you think you will have.
    So you have been in combat and know this for a fact?

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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    Quote Originally Posted by bicycleman View Post
    So you have been in combat and know this for a fact?

    As I made several points in my post that you quoted - which one are you referring to?
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Really, it's a pretty poor example of police training. I'm surprised there's not more criticism coming their way, actually.
    Perhaps we should continue the trend of the last few years regarding public employees? Pay them less. Cut resources to them making it harder to do their job. Cut some from the employment rolls and demand that those who are left pick up the slack as well as new tasks.

    Great recipe the right has there.
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