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All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

Goshin said:
You appear to have missed the point.

The point, and the question I was answering with sourced stats, was that there is no evidence that CCW permit holders pose a danger to innocent bystanders to any statistically significant degree... pity the same cannot be said for the NYPD.
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You were the one who posted the outdated information which I showed to be outdated. Why did you put that into your post with the much more up to date info? That is the sort of error that can later cause others to doubt your veracity.

There IS evidence that some "CCW permit holders pose a danger" to others. Please note my use of the word "some", unlike far too many with bilateral thinking who can only accept two possibilities for any situation, I do understand that there is often a range of factual answers to any question.

The following are crimes committed by CCW permit holders from 2007 to 2012
Concealed Carry Killers

LEOs killed - 14

Private citizens killed - 448
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Total killed - 462. Not that many when compared to the total number of firearms murders but still it does perhaps indicate either inadequate vetting of those who request permits or that no matter how much of a pre-issue investigation may be done to verify the mental stability of the permit seeker - easy access to a firearm does contribute to some of the deaths we have in this country. This is particularly true in those instances where multiple deaths occurred, like the shooting of Gabby Gifford in Arizona where if Jared Loughner had only had a knife, perhaps not so many would have died.
 
Somerville said:
You were the one who posted the outdated information which I showed to be outdated. Why did you put that into your post with the much more up to date info? That is the sort of error that can later cause others to doubt your veracity.

There IS evidence that some "CCW permit holders pose a danger" to others. Please note my use of the word "some", unlike far too many with bilateral thinking who can only accept two possibilities for any situation, I do understand that there is often a range of factual answers to any question.

The following are crimes committed by CCW permit holders from 2007 to 2012


Total killed - 462. Not that many when compared to the total number of firearms murders but still it does perhaps indicate either inadequate vetting of those who request permits or that no matter how much of a pre-issue investigation may be done to verify the mental stability of the permit seeker - easy access to a firearm does contribute to some of the deaths we have in this country. This is particularly true in those instances where multiple deaths occurred, like the shooting of Gabby Gifford in Arizona where if Jared Loughner had only had a knife, perhaps not so many would have died.
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Information may not be up to the minute, but still illustrates the point... statistically the number of CCW'ers who are charged with crimes is extremely low.


462, out of six million permit holders, assuming your information is accurate, in a six year period... during that same period there were probably around 180,000 total firearm deaths of which probably about 70,000 were homicides... just counting the homicides that gives us a ratio of 0.0066 permit holders to other homicide subjects... again, a TINY percentage.


Nice try, no cigar. You're trying to paint me as saying "NO CCW'er is EVER any threat to anyone" when that was not my assertion; my assertion was that STATISTICALLY concealed carry permit holders are not a threat to the public, and indeed probably less of a threat than many police departments.

Perhaps you're not missing the point... but rather, dodging it....
 
Goshin said:
No, I did not. We were astonishingly fortunate that my son had not a single scratch; he had a blanket around his shoulders (it was slightly cool that morning) and had interposed it. The fox had bitten the blanket repeatedly but failed to get in a bite on my child.
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Glad to hear it.

Goshin said:
"Rabid" was, I suppose, an assumption on my part... but a good assumption. Foxes don't normally act like this... they're not out in the daytime much, they almost never approach humans within touching range, and I've never heard of a non-rabid fox attacking a human unless the humans stumbled over a nest with kits. Thus I presumed the animal was rabid.
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Good assumption ... and I agree with you.

Goshin said:
We live out in the country. We don't call the authorities for every little thing. I burned the fox carcass (to protect against other animals eating it and possibly being infected) and warned my neighbors, and that was that as far as I was concerned.
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You are lucky that you don't live here in Uncle Joe's state. First, the SPCA would be after you for your 'vicious' (a word they like to use) attack on a wild animal. Second, they would have their shorts in knots because of your 'unwarrented' assumption that the fox was rabid. Third, they would be after you for burning the evidence. DENREC (the DE EPA) would be ballistic because you were burning unauthorized carbon-based material. The county cops would go after you for discharging a weapon. They would want to know if the pistol was registered. They would want to know where you were standing, where the fox was, and where your neighbors live to see if you endangered their safety. They would also know why you took matters into your own hands and did not call for officers to take care of the situation. The health officials would want to know why you didn't take your son in for proper medical evaluation (not to mention taking the dead fox in for rabies testing). Then they'd want to know why you didn't report the incident so they could evaluate it and search the area for other potentially rabid animals.

I'm sure I've left some gubmet agencies out ... but you would be in the middle of an administrative nightmare.

YOU DID EVERYTHING RIGHT but the gubmet agencies would go nuts. You'd be the focus of the local rag ... and you'd get more hate letters in the letters to the editor section than you could stand.

I enjoyed your story ... but if you were here, none of us would have heard it because YOU would be an admitted felon. You would not have told the story ... and that would have been a wise choice.

A L
 
Another Lurker said:
Glad to hear it.



Good assumption ... and I agree with you.



You are lucky that you don't live here in Uncle Joe's state.
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Not lucky; choice. I've lived other places... I moved back to SC for specific reasons.

First, the SPCA would be after you for your 'vicious' (a word they like to use) attack on a wild animal. Second, they would have their shorts in knots because of your 'unwarrented' assumption that the fox was rabid.
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Nobody around here cares. We shoot "varmints" (ie anything that causes us problems) any time we feel like it.

Third, they would be after you for burning the evidence. DENREC (the DE EPA) would be ballistic because you were burning unauthorized carbon-based material.
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Nobody around here cares, unless the fire is dangerously large and uncontrolled.


The county cops would go after you for discharging a weapon.
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I can stand in my backyard and shoot all day long, perfectly legal. In fact I do this rather often. So do many of my neighbors. Rural area.



They would want to know if the pistol was registered.
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No such thing in this state.


They would want to know where you were standing, where the fox was, and where your neighbors live to see if you endangered their safety.
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If someone called the law about this, they'd ask if any person was hurt or any property was damaged... when told "no", the Deputy would incredulously ask "Then what the hell is the problem??" :mrgreen:



They would also know why you took matters into your own hands and did not call for officers to take care of the situation.
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Yeah, nobody cares about that around here; people handle their own problems mostly. We call the county, if we call them at all, to pick up the bodies afterward and write the report. Several months ago one of my neighbors shot a burglar in the leg... he called the law afterward to report it... burglar was arrested, homeowner was not. The locals kidded him, asking him whether he was squeamish or just a crappy shot for not killing the guy.



The health officials would want to know why you didn't take your son in for proper medical evaluation (not to mention taking the dead fox in for rabies testing).
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In this state, my son: my choice. Now if he came down with rabies that would be different, I could be charged with neglect. I am however, medically trained to a reasonable degree and inspected every inch of his skin for any bite or scratch... had there been any, he would have gone to the ER. Otherwise... we don't run off to the doctor or the hospital for every little thing.




Then they'd want to know why you didn't report the incident so they could evaluate it and search the area for other potentially rabid animals.
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To my knowlege I am under no legal obligation to do so in my state. In any case, I did make a report... to the neighbors. "Y'all watch out, I shot a rabid fox yesterday..."




I'm sure I've left some gubmet agencies out ... but you would be in the middle of an administrative nightmare.
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Makes me glad I don't live in your state, but as I said, where I live is not an accident or mere chance of birth, I chose to move back here.



YOU DID EVERYTHING RIGHT but the gubmet agencies would go nuts. You'd be the focus of the local rag ... and you'd get more hate letters in the letters to the editor section than you could stand.

I enjoyed your story ... but if you were here, none of us would have heard it because YOU would be an admitted felon. You would not have told the story ... and that would have been a wise choice.

A L
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Sounds like you need to move elsewhere. :mrgreen:
 
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It can be a bit distorting when trying to compare police and CCWs.

The CCW 'wins' if the badguy simply runs away, the cop does not.

The CCW is singled out to be a victim, the badguy usually has no idea he picked the wrong guy until the CCW presents.

Only undercovers have that advantage, uniformed cops are walking billboards.

Badguys are not prone to attack their victim in a crowd, they are like any other predator, hunt the separated from the herd, the weak looking, the distracted.

Cops don't get the luxury of separating the badguy from the herd.

Having worked a few quals of cops I'd say marksmanship isn't what most would like it to be. A few, because they really like shooting, do quite well. Most pass, a few struggle. Oklahoma's training body, called CLEET, recently dropped the 50 yard line from the qual, weak hand barricade supported, and half the shots were less than 7 yards. Not promoting excellence in marksmanship, but raising test scores.

Now having seen the 'skills' of quite a few CCWs who attend our pistol courses, basic and advanced defensive, I can say most couldn't do any better than the cops. Most CCWs get the permit and never work on developing the skill set that goes with using the pistol in case of attack. Too much open ground to cross supporting the idea CCWs are better shots than cops, they are rarely in the same situation.
 
Somerville said:
You were the one who posted the outdated information which I showed to be outdated. Why did you put that into your post with the much more up to date info? That is the sort of error that can later cause others to doubt your veracity.

There IS evidence that some "CCW permit holders pose a danger" to others. Please note my use of the word "some", unlike far too many with bilateral thinking who can only accept two possibilities for any situation, I do understand that there is often a range of factual answers to any question.

The following are crimes committed by CCW permit holders from 2007 to 2012


Total killed - 462. Not that many when compared to the total number of firearms murders but still it does perhaps indicate either inadequate vetting of those who request permits or that no matter how much of a pre-issue investigation may be done to verify the mental stability of the permit seeker - easy access to a firearm does contribute to some of the deaths we have in this country. This is particularly true in those instances where multiple deaths occurred, like the shooting of Gabby Gifford in Arizona where if Jared Loughner had only had a knife, perhaps not so many would have died.
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VPC.. :roll:
 
So...






This wasnt a mass shooting?
 
bicycle-
LE Departments generally have expert Instructors as part of the force. They have training schedules for practice and education. The state level offers courses in a wide variety of continuing education for cops. Many departments issue practice ammo,(yes some guys sell theirs off), and most states require qualifications- at the very least annually.

Now about your Dude, I can imagine if I was 72 and two badguys came into the store I wouldn't be seen as the biggest threat,(a cop in uniform would). I would expect they would turn their backs on me as they concentrate on the younger folks manning the register or shopping, (they would be so casual with a cop). Most likely I'd be able to present my weapon before the badguys knew what I was doing, (again a uniformed cop doesn't get that grace period)

Now would be good to know the distance to target, how long the old man had before the bad guy caught on, thinking the badguy never knew what hit him, certainly no exchange of gunfire.

Not knocking a citizen stopping crime, am knocking you using this as a swipe at cops who confront badguys letting everyone know what they face.
 
Somerville said:
When so many Americans have the idea that "Only if I had a gun with me, I could have stopped X from happening", the real world sometimes shows a different reality.





NY Daily News


The killer had one round left in his pistol so it appears to be "suicide by cop" after he committed a murder.

One of the officers reacts quickly and brings his weapon to bear on the killer, the other one - not so good, his first reaction is to move behind his partner before drawing his pistol. MY point is to bring to everyone's attention the reality that your personal reaction at the moment you realise death is looming before you may not be the reaction you think you will have.
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This only proves that the police should be disarmed. :lol:
 
Goshin said:
I'll throw in here what I posted on this subject in another thread...

Depends. Cops from some dept's score 91% hits (on the PERP) in actual shootings... in other places (oddly enough, often those where citizens are mostly disarmed) some departments score as low as 17% in actual shootings.

For SC CWP, at the time I did it, you had to put over half your rounds into the K-zone of a silouette at up to 15 or 20 yards (I forget which). There were six other people taking the course that day when I did it, the only one that had any problem doing this was an older lady who had never shot much. The instructor went over some things with her (grip, trigger squeeze, sight picture, etc) and she qual'd on her second try.

I put every round through the K-zone, and so did the guy next to me. Of course, I'd been shooting since I was knee-high, and when I was a cop I routinely out-shot the Department instructor at the range. Not bragging, just fact. In my estimation the shooters on the line in my CCW class were mostly on-par with the cops I shot with when I was doing the LE thing.

Around here, it is just kind of expected that you know how to shoot already if you show up and apply for an LE job. If you don't already shoot fairly well, you get some funny and/or exasperated looks.

I've never lived in NYC but I have friends who have, some of whom were involved in LE or Military activities in or around the city. They've told me that it is astonishing how very very few NY'ers know how to DO anything.... swim, drive, operate "heavy" machinery like a backhoe, fix anything mechanical... or shoot any kind of firearm. According to some of my sources most NYPD recruits have never fired a handgun before joining and many have never fired ANY actual firearm. This kinda explains a lot, in terms of NYC's poor record on cop shoots.

Last I heard, they were also using those damn 9-pound "NY triggers" on their 9mm Glocks, which is a good way to ruin even a good shooter's aim. They did this in response to an excessive number of negligent discharges resulting in injury... but the solution to that is good training not heavy-ass triggers.

Studies have been done about what sort of person does well in a shootout, hitting their man and putting him down without hitting bystanders. The conclusion was that the best shooters in real shootouts have some or most of the following traits:

1. Was a shooter before joining LE.
2. Experienced Hunter.
3. Engaged in competitive target shooting.
4. Engaged in precision shooting competition.
5. Handloader/Reloader (shows a depth of involvement in shooting activities)
6. Exhibits skill-acquisition behavior in other areas (ie possesses other skills like driving, swimming, martial arts/boxing/wrestling, biking, etc)
7. Exhibits ability to think on his feet and/or function under stress.
8. Military background, especially combat arms.

These were some of the characteristics some departments looked for in special-operation units that were likely to engage in shoot outs with violent perps... someone with 3 or 4 or more of the above traits typically did well in such engagements.

It's hard to be sure who will keep their stuff wired tight in a fight until it actually happens... but statistically CCW'ers shoot far fewer bystanders than cops per-capita so it isn't the CCW'ers we need to worry about....
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Many cops are extremely bad shots in stress and fast-shoot situations. So if an officer is 50% at the range, if he was 10% in real life it would be lucky. It might because so much attention is paid to other topics, little is left for the physical and danger aspects of being an officer.

The other aspect is there is a big different between shooting at targets and at people/something living - why hunters tend to make good cops in terms of shooting - and why I ALWAYS lead training to situational shooting involving different volunteer people - not just targets. If in practice you shoot lots of people lots of time a person is more prepared for the real thing.

My lady was a champion gymnast and has real physical coordination and abilities. On her request, I trained her on her handgun. She is intense at perfection in anything she does. I used others for situational training and her shooting skill was strictly limited to exact limits and potentials. On one occasion, with paint ball bullets, at a distant of 10 yards and it pre-known what would happen (plus proper eye protection), 4 veteran officers at one end and her at the other were to draw and shoot on command. "On 3. 1, 2, 3!" She "killed" all 4 with head shots firing 4 rounds (her noting they wore bullet resistant vests - "bullet proof" of course a myth). One of them hit her in the leg and he was technically already dead when he did.

Those 4 officers have over 5 decades in law enforcement. They all do ok at the target range. But real life shooting and at moving targets under stress is something quite different - particularly if the target is shooting at them - even if just with paint balls.

And yes, I had her trigger(s) reworked and overall the guns detailed out even before training began. Most manufactured firearms need detailing.
 
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notquiteright said:
bicycle-
LE Departments generally have expert Instructors as part of the force. They have training schedules for practice and education. The state level offers courses in a wide variety of continuing education for cops. Many departments issue practice ammo,(yes some guys sell theirs off), and most states require qualifications- at the very least annually.

Now about your Dude, I can imagine if I was 72 and two badguys came into the store I wouldn't be seen as the biggest threat,(a cop in uniform would). I would expect they would turn their backs on me as they concentrate on the younger folks manning the register or shopping, (they would be so casual with a cop). Most likely I'd be able to present my weapon before the badguys knew what I was doing, (again a uniformed cop doesn't get that grace period)

Now would be good to know the distance to target, how long the old man had before the bad guy caught on, thinking the badguy never knew what hit him, certainly no exchange of gunfire.

Not knocking a citizen stopping crime, am knocking you using this as a swipe at cops who confront badguys letting everyone know what they face.
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If a guy wants to be a cop, he better know how to shoot and how to shoot under pressure. Obviously these cops couldn't shoot under pressure and their biggest problem is that they were using Glocks, one piece of crap that has been known to go off by itself. From what I hear, the cops were only 10 feet from the guy. That's no excuse, since my firearms instructor ( a former combat Marine officer) said that most shootings occur within a zone of 6 yards, or 18 feet to the mathematically challenged. For my ccw, my wife and I had to qualify against a silhouette target at 6 yards, whereas we routinely shoot at small targets 15 and 25 yards away. I make my own targets, small circles that I create from a drawing program in Microsoft Word.

Remember the scene from the Patriot, where Mel Gibson instructed his sons to "aim small, miss small"? That's what I shoot at. From what I hear these cops were lucky to be able hit the broad side of the barn. As a concealed carry holder, I have been taught to practice often and always be aware of where that round is going to go, and if I can't be sure that I won't hit an innocent bystander, then I better not fire or I will be facing serious consequences. Yet, it would appear these cops have been given the okay. I suppose NYPD Police Academy will have a tolerance of 5 collateral damage hits before any disciplinary action will be taken against any future officer.
 
Bicycle-
Never said a policeman doesn't need to know how to shoot, did say comparing your old Dude to what cops face is bogus. Please try and follow the line of discussion.

For your CCW class did you engage the target from the CCW holster? When you practice do you run a bit or do a few jumping jacks to get your heart rate up? What course of fire do you use when practicing? Do you and the love of your life practice with airsoft to better simulate a weapon on weapon engagement like cops face?

I ask because PROPER Prior Practice Prevents Piss Poor Performance, it is nice you can stand and hit small targets but if you attend a good defensive pistol course you will see what the stress monkey can do to marksmanship,and movement is a key to surviving a shoot-out, or do you invision the ambush, badguy never sees what hits him sort of thing.

The cops in question should have done better with fewer rounds, but they were getting their cherries popped.

Aim small miss small is very good advice, however there are times when not in a scripted movie where the firstest with the mostest wins, do you know who said that?

I do agree with you on one thing, you have no idea what you will do if a badguy points a weapon at you, how well you will shoot, and if you would do the one round one kill thing.

Oh wait you said another thing I agree with, I am not a Glock fan.... ;)
 
American said:
This only proves that the police should be disarmed. :lol:
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well using the anti nuke peaceniks that will cause the gangbangers and other scumbags to turn in their weapons as well!
 
notquiteright said:
Bicycle-
Never said a policeman doesn't need to know how to shoot, did say comparing your old Dude to what cops face is bogus. Please try and follow the line of discussion.

For your CCW class did you engage the target from the CCW holster? When you practice do you run a bit or do a few jumping jacks to get your heart rate up? What course of fire do you use when practicing? Do you and the love of your life practice with airsoft to better simulate a weapon on weapon engagement like cops face?

I ask because PROPER Prior Practice Prevents Piss Poor Performance, it is nice you can stand and hit small targets but if you attend a good defensive pistol course you will see what the stress monkey can do to marksmanship,and movement is a key to surviving a shoot-out, or do you invision the ambush, badguy never sees what hits him sort of thing.

The cops in question should have done better with fewer rounds, but they were getting their cherries popped.

Aim small miss small is very good advice, however there are times when not in a scripted movie where the firstest with the mostest wins, do you know who said that?

I do agree with you on one thing, you have no idea what you will do if a badguy points a weapon at you, how well you will shoot, and if you would do the one round one kill thing.

Oh wait you said another thing I agree with, I am not a Glock fan.... ;)
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you need to practice under high degrees of stress. big money IPSC events are good choices. so are house clearing operations or even better-ones using simulations with live opposition.

Glocks are great guns. However, the Smith And Wesson MP is a superior design--Far faster to shoot accurately
 
notquiteright said:
Bicycle-
Never said a policeman doesn't need to know how to shoot, did say comparing your old Dude to what cops face is bogus. Please try and follow the line of discussion.

For your CCW class did you engage the target from the CCW holster? When you practice do you run a bit or do a few jumping jacks to get your heart rate up? What course of fire do you use when practicing? Do you and the love of your life practice with airsoft to better simulate a weapon on weapon engagement like cops face?

I ask because PROPER Prior Practice Prevents Piss Poor Performance, it is nice you can stand and hit small targets but if you attend a good defensive pistol course you will see what the stress monkey can do to marksmanship,and movement is a key to surviving a shoot-out, or do you invision the ambush, badguy never sees what hits him sort of thing.

The cops in question should have done better with fewer rounds, but they were getting their cherries popped.

Aim small miss small is very good advice, however there are times when not in a scripted movie where the firstest with the mostest wins, do you know who said that?

I do agree with you on one thing, you have no idea what you will do if a badguy points a weapon at you, how well you will shoot, and if you would do the one round one kill thing.

Oh wait you said another thing I agree with, I am not a Glock fan.... ;)
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You obviously didn't read the link because if you had, you would know that the "old dude" was not 72, but instead 57. Is all your "experience and knowhow" yours, or what you have read or saw in the movies?

You seem to think that we ccw holders get that permit so we can go out and kill people. That was not the idea at all. I got it because I can and I could go out and carry open if I wanted because Virginia is an open-carry state. I choose not to because it upsets those northern snowbird transplants from New York, the state where the cops can't shoot without hitting innocent bystanders. I also hope I never have to shoot anyone, but if I have to face someone down, I also know that I could die in the exchange, but what would you do if the life of a loved one depends on you to shoot fast and accurate?
 
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MaggieD said:
Or maybe we should actually fire the LEOs who used such poor judgment as to wound 8 civilians. I mean, really, that's pretty pathetic.

"Where's my union rep??!!!" ;) ;)
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THERE IT GOES!!!!

Someone is always throwing that FIRE EM FIRE EM FIRE EM argument in there.

Make a mistake? Fire em
Something bad happens outside of someone's direct control? Fire em
Officer farts in public? Fire em
Officer makes a joke? Fire em.


And, I guess the whole union rep thing has a point.... I wouldn't know..... We don't use that **** around here.
 
DA60 said:
Agreed.

The guy pointed his gun at them sure, but he never fired.

Then these trigger happy cops fired 16 rounds at the guy and injured 9 civilians.

These cops should have fired less rounds considering all the people around...even if that puts them in more harms way, imo.

Serve and protect? Who, themselves? At the expense of civilians?


Nine by-standers injured by police in New York shooting - YouTube
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When the stress of possibly being killed by someone who points a deadly weapon at you and is 0.2 seconds from ending your life hits you, lets see how many rounds you pump out of a weapon before you realize that you have even been shooting.

If the barrel is already facing you...... you could be dead in less time than you can even think in.

This **** ain't the movies.
 
herenow1 said:
I wonder if they still kept shooting after he went down.
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Sadly it would appear that it is a possibility.

Nothing like the stress of fear of death that can bring about poor decision making.
 
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