• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

Somerville

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 29, 2012
Messages
17,822
Reaction score
8,296
Location
On an island. Not that one!
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Socialist
When so many Americans have the idea that "Only if I had a gun with me, I could have stopped X from happening", the real world sometimes shows a different reality.

All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

NEW YORK — All nine people wounded in a New York shootout between a gunman who killed a former co-worker and officers who responded to the incident were hit by police fire, officials said Saturday.

The shootout erupted Friday morning in front of the iconic Empire State Building in the heart of Manhattan after Jeffrey Johnson, a former employee at a women's apparel business, killed a former colleague.



NY Daily News
Six of the nine wounded bystanders in the wild Empire State Building shooting were struck by bullet fragments as cops fired 16 shots at a cold-blooded killer in a grey suit.

Three other victims were hit by bullets Friday morning when two officers opened fire on Jeffrey Johnson after the murderer pointed his .45-caliber handgun at them, NYPD Commissioner Raymond Kelly said Saturday.

Johnson, wearing a suit and tie, never fired a shot as the officers approached him shortly after 9 a.m. outside the 102-story tourist attraction, Kelly said.

The killer had one round left in his pistol so it appears to be "suicide by cop" after he committed a murder.

One of the officers reacts quickly and brings his weapon to bear on the killer, the other one - not so good, his first reaction is to move behind his partner before drawing his pistol. MY point is to bring to everyone's attention the reality that your personal reaction at the moment you realise death is looming before you may not be the reaction you think you will have.
 
When so many Americans have the idea that "Only if I had a gun with me, I could have stopped X from happening", the real world sometimes shows a different reality.

.


I'll throw in here what I posted on this subject in another thread...

Depends. Cops from some dept's score 91% hits (on the PERP) in actual shootings... in other places (oddly enough, often those where citizens are mostly disarmed) some departments score as low as 17% in actual shootings.

For SC CWP, at the time I did it, you had to put over half your rounds into the K-zone of a silouette at up to 15 or 20 yards (I forget which). There were six other people taking the course that day when I did it, the only one that had any problem doing this was an older lady who had never shot much. The instructor went over some things with her (grip, trigger squeeze, sight picture, etc) and she qual'd on her second try.

I put every round through the K-zone, and so did the guy next to me. Of course, I'd been shooting since I was knee-high, and when I was a cop I routinely out-shot the Department instructor at the range. Not bragging, just fact. In my estimation the shooters on the line in my CCW class were mostly on-par with the cops I shot with when I was doing the LE thing.

Around here, it is just kind of expected that you know how to shoot already if you show up and apply for an LE job. If you don't already shoot fairly well, you get some funny and/or exasperated looks.

I've never lived in NYC but I have friends who have, some of whom were involved in LE or Military activities in or around the city. They've told me that it is astonishing how very very few NY'ers know how to DO anything.... swim, drive, operate "heavy" machinery like a backhoe, fix anything mechanical... or shoot any kind of firearm. According to some of my sources most NYPD recruits have never fired a handgun before joining and many have never fired ANY actual firearm. This kinda explains a lot, in terms of NYC's poor record on cop shoots.

Last I heard, they were also using those damn 9-pound "NY triggers" on their 9mm Glocks, which is a good way to ruin even a good shooter's aim. They did this in response to an excessive number of negligent discharges resulting in injury... but the solution to that is good training not heavy-ass triggers.

Studies have been done about what sort of person does well in a shootout, hitting their man and putting him down without hitting bystanders. The conclusion was that the best shooters in real shootouts have some or most of the following traits:

1. Was a shooter before joining LE.
2. Experienced Hunter.
3. Engaged in competitive target shooting.
4. Engaged in precision shooting competition.
5. Handloader/Reloader (shows a depth of involvement in shooting activities)
6. Exhibits skill-acquisition behavior in other areas (ie possesses other skills like driving, swimming, martial arts/boxing/wrestling, biking, etc)
7. Exhibits ability to think on his feet and/or function under stress.
8. Military background, especially combat arms.

These were some of the characteristics some departments looked for in special-operation units that were likely to engage in shoot outs with violent perps... someone with 3 or 4 or more of the above traits typically did well in such engagements.

It's hard to be sure who will keep their stuff wired tight in a fight until it actually happens... but statistically CCW'ers shoot far fewer bystanders than cops per-capita so it isn't the CCW'ers we need to worry about....
 
Goshin wrote
statistically CCW'ers shoot far fewer bystanders than cops per-capita so it isn't the CCW'ers we need to worry about....

Can you support your statement with a link or two to some academic study(s)?
 
was the department using FMJ rounds? were they passing through the target and hitting bystanders?

I can't imagine that NYC would do that , but I guess the question has to be asked...

second question is WTF? a simple double tap would have saved lives, instead of spray and pray ...
 
It appears that the wounded bystanders were hit by fragments, not direct bullets. Might have been unavoidable but that had to be a lot of shots fired to hit 9 people with fragments. Perhaps the NYPD needs more range time.
 
When so many Americans have the idea that "Only if I had a gun with me, I could have stopped X from happening", the real world sometimes shows a different reality.

The killer had one round left in his pistol so it appears to be "suicide by cop" after he committed a murder.

One of the officers reacts quickly and brings his weapon to bear on the killer, the other one - not so good, his first reaction is to move behind his partner before drawing his pistol. MY point is to bring to everyone's attention the reality that your personal reaction at the moment you realise death is looming before you may not be the reaction you think you will have.

Really, it's a pretty poor example of police training. I'm surprised there's not more criticism coming their way, actually.
 
When so many Americans have the idea that "Only if I had a gun with me, I could have stopped X from happening", the real world sometimes shows a different reality.





NY Daily News


The killer had one round left in his pistol so it appears to be "suicide by cop" after he committed a murder.

One of the officers reacts quickly and brings his weapon to bear on the killer, the other one - not so good, his first reaction is to move behind his partner before drawing his pistol. MY point is to bring to everyone's attention the reality that your personal reaction at the moment you realise death is looming before you may not be the reaction you think you will have.


So you have been in combat and know this for a fact?
 
Really, it's a pretty poor example of police training. I'm surprised there's not more criticism coming their way, actually.

Perhaps we should continue the trend of the last few years regarding public employees? Pay them less. Cut resources to them making it harder to do their job. Cut some from the employment rolls and demand that those who are left pick up the slack as well as new tasks.

Great recipe the right has there. :roll:
 
Perhaps we should continue the trend of the last few years regarding public employees? Pay them less. Cut resources to them making it harder to do their job. Cut some from the employment rolls and demand that those who are left pick up the slack as well as new tasks.

Great recipe the right has there. :roll:

Or, the government could stop killing jobs and we could generate the tax revenue needed to pay those public employees. I know the Libbos thinks that's just a crazy notion, but it's worth mentioning.
 
It's so cute to watch all the "if only the citizens had been armed" conservatives now shift into high gear and blame the the cops. Lol. Hindsight is 20/20.
 
Perhaps we should continue the trend of the last few years regarding public employees? Pay them less. Cut resources to them making it harder to do their job. Cut some from the employment rolls and demand that those who are left pick up the slack as well as new tasks.

Great recipe the right has there. :roll:

Or maybe we should actually fire the LEOs who used such poor judgment as to wound 8 civilians. I mean, really, that's pretty pathetic.

"Where's my union rep??!!!" ;) ;)
 
It's so cute to watch all the "if only the citizens had been armed" conservatives now shift into high gear and blame the the cops. Lol. Hindsight is 20/20.

Don't really see that happening here. Just questions so far. But there is an expectation of all law enforcement professionals to be trained and proficient in their use of fire arms. One of the core foundations of any LE firearms trainings is to be very aware of your surroundings, especially in regards to bystanders.

I'll say this, if the report of fragments causing the injuries is accurate, it was more than likely unavoidable. They fired 16 shots between two officers so I wouldn't even say it was fire control problem either.

This is just a case of crappy reporting as the headlines says "Bystanders Shot by Police."
 
Or maybe we should actually fire the LEOs who used such poor judgment as to wound 8 civilians. I mean, really, that's pretty pathetic.

"Where's my union rep??!!!" ;) ;)
Agreed.

The guy pointed his gun at them sure, but he never fired.

Then these trigger happy cops fired 16 rounds at the guy and injured 9 civilians.

These cops should have fired less rounds considering all the people around...even if that puts them in more harms way, imo.

Serve and protect? Who, themselves? At the expense of civilians?


Nine by-standers injured by police in New York shooting - YouTube
 
It's so cute to watch all the "if only the citizens had been armed" conservatives now shift into high gear and blame the the cops. Lol. Hindsight is 20/20.

If the citizens in the area had been armed, there'd probably be a whole lot more people dead and wounded. LEO's have a split second to make a decision to fire. They can't be askin' for people's permits. Anyone using that argument here is out of touch with reality.
 
Agreed.

The guy pointed his gun at them sure, but he never fired.
Then these trigger happy cops fired 16 rounds at the guy and injured 9 civilians.

These cops should have fired less rounds considering all the people around...even if that puts them in more harms way, imo.

Serve and protect? Who, themselves? At the expense of civilians?


Nine by-standers injured by police in New York shooting - YouTube

So, you are saying that the cops should have waited until he shot at them to return fire?
 
I wonder if they still kept shooting after he went down.
 
If the citizens in the area had been armed, there'd probably be a whole lot more people dead and wounded. LEO's have a split second to make a decision to fire. They can't be askin' for people's permits. Anyone using that argument here is out of touch with reality.

honestly, I hadnt thought about the police shooting the permit holder.

I guess if they will put 20+ rounds down range they are not really thinking about properly identifying a target.
 
Agreed.

The guy pointed his gun at them sure, but he never fired.

Then these trigger happy cops fired 16 rounds at the guy and injured 9 civilians.

These cops should have fired less rounds considering all the people around...even if that puts them in more harms way, imo.

Serve and protect? Who, themselves? At the expense of civilians?


Nine by-standers injured by police in New York shooting - YouTube

In fairness, 16 rounds between two cops isn't really that many. One shot 7 rounds, the other 9. That can occur in less than 10 seconds. The guy raised his weapon at them. Doesn't matter if he actually fired or not. You shoot until the threat is gone. You're kind of Monday morning quarterbacking here.

The reports coming out that the injuries of the bystanders were fragments from brick and what not in the area put into motion by bullet impacts. I'd agree with you completely if they were just wildly shooting but that doesn't seem to be the case here. At least from the info available.
 
Any person that draws a weapon when the cops are engaged with an active shooter, deserves to get shot.
 
Any person that draws a weapon when the cops are engaged with an active shooter, deserves to get shot.


You do realise that you've just said that it would be OK to shoot an innocent person who draws his weapon in an attempt to aid LEOs shooting at a criminal - don't you?
 
Any person that draws a weapon when the cops are engaged with an active shooter, deserves to get shot.

Then what's the point in having a firearm to defend yourself?
 
You do realise that you've just said that it would be OK to shoot an innocent person who draws his weapon in an attempt to aid LEOs shooting at a criminal - don't you?

Chief said:

Any person that draws a weapon when the cops are engaged with an active shooter, deserves to get shot.

I rather think his point may have been that the guy's too stupid to live. I personally can't think of a dumber thing to do when LEO's are in fear of their lives. They aren't robots. And they aren't checkin' for permits. They're trying to stay alive.
 
Back
Top Bottom