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Thread: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

  1. #61
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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    When so many Americans have the idea that "Only if I had a gun with me, I could have stopped X from happening", the real world sometimes shows a different reality.





    NY Daily News


    The killer had one round left in his pistol so it appears to be "suicide by cop" after he committed a murder.

    One of the officers reacts quickly and brings his weapon to bear on the killer, the other one - not so good, his first reaction is to move behind his partner before drawing his pistol. MY point is to bring to everyone's attention the reality that your personal reaction at the moment you realise death is looming before you may not be the reaction you think you will have.
    This only proves that the police should be disarmed.
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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I'll throw in here what I posted on this subject in another thread...

    Depends. Cops from some dept's score 91% hits (on the PERP) in actual shootings... in other places (oddly enough, often those where citizens are mostly disarmed) some departments score as low as 17% in actual shootings.

    For SC CWP, at the time I did it, you had to put over half your rounds into the K-zone of a silouette at up to 15 or 20 yards (I forget which). There were six other people taking the course that day when I did it, the only one that had any problem doing this was an older lady who had never shot much. The instructor went over some things with her (grip, trigger squeeze, sight picture, etc) and she qual'd on her second try.

    I put every round through the K-zone, and so did the guy next to me. Of course, I'd been shooting since I was knee-high, and when I was a cop I routinely out-shot the Department instructor at the range. Not bragging, just fact. In my estimation the shooters on the line in my CCW class were mostly on-par with the cops I shot with when I was doing the LE thing.

    Around here, it is just kind of expected that you know how to shoot already if you show up and apply for an LE job. If you don't already shoot fairly well, you get some funny and/or exasperated looks.

    I've never lived in NYC but I have friends who have, some of whom were involved in LE or Military activities in or around the city. They've told me that it is astonishing how very very few NY'ers know how to DO anything.... swim, drive, operate "heavy" machinery like a backhoe, fix anything mechanical... or shoot any kind of firearm. According to some of my sources most NYPD recruits have never fired a handgun before joining and many have never fired ANY actual firearm. This kinda explains a lot, in terms of NYC's poor record on cop shoots.

    Last I heard, they were also using those damn 9-pound "NY triggers" on their 9mm Glocks, which is a good way to ruin even a good shooter's aim. They did this in response to an excessive number of negligent discharges resulting in injury... but the solution to that is good training not heavy-ass triggers.

    Studies have been done about what sort of person does well in a shootout, hitting their man and putting him down without hitting bystanders. The conclusion was that the best shooters in real shootouts have some or most of the following traits:

    1. Was a shooter before joining LE.
    2. Experienced Hunter.
    3. Engaged in competitive target shooting.
    4. Engaged in precision shooting competition.
    5. Handloader/Reloader (shows a depth of involvement in shooting activities)
    6. Exhibits skill-acquisition behavior in other areas (ie possesses other skills like driving, swimming, martial arts/boxing/wrestling, biking, etc)
    7. Exhibits ability to think on his feet and/or function under stress.
    8. Military background, especially combat arms.

    These were some of the characteristics some departments looked for in special-operation units that were likely to engage in shoot outs with violent perps... someone with 3 or 4 or more of the above traits typically did well in such engagements.

    It's hard to be sure who will keep their stuff wired tight in a fight until it actually happens... but statistically CCW'ers shoot far fewer bystanders than cops per-capita so it isn't the CCW'ers we need to worry about....

    Many cops are extremely bad shots in stress and fast-shoot situations. So if an officer is 50% at the range, if he was 10% in real life it would be lucky. It might because so much attention is paid to other topics, little is left for the physical and danger aspects of being an officer.

    The other aspect is there is a big different between shooting at targets and at people/something living - why hunters tend to make good cops in terms of shooting - and why I ALWAYS lead training to situational shooting involving different volunteer people - not just targets. If in practice you shoot lots of people lots of time a person is more prepared for the real thing.

    My lady was a champion gymnast and has real physical coordination and abilities. On her request, I trained her on her handgun. She is intense at perfection in anything she does. I used others for situational training and her shooting skill was strictly limited to exact limits and potentials. On one occasion, with paint ball bullets, at a distant of 10 yards and it pre-known what would happen (plus proper eye protection), 4 veteran officers at one end and her at the other were to draw and shoot on command. "On 3. 1, 2, 3!" She "killed" all 4 with head shots firing 4 rounds (her noting they wore bullet resistant vests - "bullet proof" of course a myth). One of them hit her in the leg and he was technically already dead when he did.

    Those 4 officers have over 5 decades in law enforcement. They all do ok at the target range. But real life shooting and at moving targets under stress is something quite different - particularly if the target is shooting at them - even if just with paint balls.

    And yes, I had her trigger(s) reworked and overall the guns detailed out even before training began. Most manufactured firearms need detailing.
    Last edited by joko104; 08-28-12 at 07:25 PM.

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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    Goshin wrote


    Can you support your statement with a link or two to some academic study(s)?
    google.com
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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    bicycle-
    LE Departments generally have expert Instructors as part of the force. They have training schedules for practice and education. The state level offers courses in a wide variety of continuing education for cops. Many departments issue practice ammo,(yes some guys sell theirs off), and most states require qualifications- at the very least annually.

    Now about your Dude, I can imagine if I was 72 and two badguys came into the store I wouldn't be seen as the biggest threat,(a cop in uniform would). I would expect they would turn their backs on me as they concentrate on the younger folks manning the register or shopping, (they would be so casual with a cop). Most likely I'd be able to present my weapon before the badguys knew what I was doing, (again a uniformed cop doesn't get that grace period)

    Now would be good to know the distance to target, how long the old man had before the bad guy caught on, thinking the badguy never knew what hit him, certainly no exchange of gunfire.

    Not knocking a citizen stopping crime, am knocking you using this as a swipe at cops who confront badguys letting everyone know what they face.

    If a guy wants to be a cop, he better know how to shoot and how to shoot under pressure. Obviously these cops couldn't shoot under pressure and their biggest problem is that they were using Glocks, one piece of crap that has been known to go off by itself. From what I hear, the cops were only 10 feet from the guy. That's no excuse, since my firearms instructor ( a former combat Marine officer) said that most shootings occur within a zone of 6 yards, or 18 feet to the mathematically challenged. For my ccw, my wife and I had to qualify against a silhouette target at 6 yards, whereas we routinely shoot at small targets 15 and 25 yards away. I make my own targets, small circles that I create from a drawing program in Microsoft Word.

    Remember the scene from the Patriot, where Mel Gibson instructed his sons to "aim small, miss small"? That's what I shoot at. From what I hear these cops were lucky to be able hit the broad side of the barn. As a concealed carry holder, I have been taught to practice often and always be aware of where that round is going to go, and if I can't be sure that I won't hit an innocent bystander, then I better not fire or I will be facing serious consequences. Yet, it would appear these cops have been given the okay. I suppose NYPD Police Academy will have a tolerance of 5 collateral damage hits before any disciplinary action will be taken against any future officer.

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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    google.com
    You might want to spell that out for him.
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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    You might want to spell that out for him.
    I can find lots of pro-gun sites but links to actual studies - uh uh.

    It is Google - with an upper case G, except in the URL - https://www.google.com/
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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    Bicycle-
    Never said a policeman doesn't need to know how to shoot, did say comparing your old Dude to what cops face is bogus. Please try and follow the line of discussion.

    For your CCW class did you engage the target from the CCW holster? When you practice do you run a bit or do a few jumping jacks to get your heart rate up? What course of fire do you use when practicing? Do you and the love of your life practice with airsoft to better simulate a weapon on weapon engagement like cops face?

    I ask because PROPER Prior Practice Prevents Piss Poor Performance, it is nice you can stand and hit small targets but if you attend a good defensive pistol course you will see what the stress monkey can do to marksmanship,and movement is a key to surviving a shoot-out, or do you invision the ambush, badguy never sees what hits him sort of thing.

    The cops in question should have done better with fewer rounds, but they were getting their cherries popped.

    Aim small miss small is very good advice, however there are times when not in a scripted movie where the firstest with the mostest wins, do you know who said that?

    I do agree with you on one thing, you have no idea what you will do if a badguy points a weapon at you, how well you will shoot, and if you would do the one round one kill thing.

    Oh wait you said another thing I agree with, I am not a Glock fan....

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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    This only proves that the police should be disarmed.
    well using the anti nuke peaceniks that will cause the gangbangers and other scumbags to turn in their weapons as well!

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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Bicycle-
    Never said a policeman doesn't need to know how to shoot, did say comparing your old Dude to what cops face is bogus. Please try and follow the line of discussion.

    For your CCW class did you engage the target from the CCW holster? When you practice do you run a bit or do a few jumping jacks to get your heart rate up? What course of fire do you use when practicing? Do you and the love of your life practice with airsoft to better simulate a weapon on weapon engagement like cops face?

    I ask because PROPER Prior Practice Prevents Piss Poor Performance, it is nice you can stand and hit small targets but if you attend a good defensive pistol course you will see what the stress monkey can do to marksmanship,and movement is a key to surviving a shoot-out, or do you invision the ambush, badguy never sees what hits him sort of thing.

    The cops in question should have done better with fewer rounds, but they were getting their cherries popped.

    Aim small miss small is very good advice, however there are times when not in a scripted movie where the firstest with the mostest wins, do you know who said that?

    I do agree with you on one thing, you have no idea what you will do if a badguy points a weapon at you, how well you will shoot, and if you would do the one round one kill thing.

    Oh wait you said another thing I agree with, I am not a Glock fan....
    you need to practice under high degrees of stress. big money IPSC events are good choices. so are house clearing operations or even better-ones using simulations with live opposition.

    Glocks are great guns. However, the Smith And Wesson MP is a superior design--Far faster to shoot accurately

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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Bicycle-
    Never said a policeman doesn't need to know how to shoot, did say comparing your old Dude to what cops face is bogus. Please try and follow the line of discussion.

    For your CCW class did you engage the target from the CCW holster? When you practice do you run a bit or do a few jumping jacks to get your heart rate up? What course of fire do you use when practicing? Do you and the love of your life practice with airsoft to better simulate a weapon on weapon engagement like cops face?

    I ask because PROPER Prior Practice Prevents Piss Poor Performance, it is nice you can stand and hit small targets but if you attend a good defensive pistol course you will see what the stress monkey can do to marksmanship,and movement is a key to surviving a shoot-out, or do you invision the ambush, badguy never sees what hits him sort of thing.

    The cops in question should have done better with fewer rounds, but they were getting their cherries popped.

    Aim small miss small is very good advice, however there are times when not in a scripted movie where the firstest with the mostest wins, do you know who said that?

    I do agree with you on one thing, you have no idea what you will do if a badguy points a weapon at you, how well you will shoot, and if you would do the one round one kill thing.

    Oh wait you said another thing I agree with, I am not a Glock fan....
    You obviously didn't read the link because if you had, you would know that the "old dude" was not 72, but instead 57. Is all your "experience and knowhow" yours, or what you have read or saw in the movies?

    You seem to think that we ccw holders get that permit so we can go out and kill people. That was not the idea at all. I got it because I can and I could go out and carry open if I wanted because Virginia is an open-carry state. I choose not to because it upsets those northern snowbird transplants from New York, the state where the cops can't shoot without hitting innocent bystanders. I also hope I never have to shoot anyone, but if I have to face someone down, I also know that I could die in the exchange, but what would you do if the life of a loved one depends on you to shoot fast and accurate?
    Last edited by bicycleman; 08-29-12 at 06:51 AM.

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