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Thread: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

  1. #51
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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    You appear to have missed the point.

    The point, and the question I was answering with sourced stats, was that there is no evidence that CCW permit holders pose a danger to innocent bystanders to any statistically significant degree... pity the same cannot be said for the NYPD.

    You were the one who posted the outdated information which I showed to be outdated. Why did you put that into your post with the much more up to date info? That is the sort of error that can later cause others to doubt your veracity.

    There IS evidence that some "CCW permit holders pose a danger" to others. Please note my use of the word "some", unlike far too many with bilateral thinking who can only accept two possibilities for any situation, I do understand that there is often a range of factual answers to any question.

    The following are crimes committed by CCW permit holders from 2007 to 2012
    Concealed Carry Killers

    LEOs killed - 14

    Private citizens killed - 448
    Total killed - 462. Not that many when compared to the total number of firearms murders but still it does perhaps indicate either inadequate vetting of those who request permits or that no matter how much of a pre-issue investigation may be done to verify the mental stability of the permit seeker - easy access to a firearm does contribute to some of the deaths we have in this country. This is particularly true in those instances where multiple deaths occurred, like the shooting of Gabby Gifford in Arizona where if Jared Loughner had only had a knife, perhaps not so many would have died.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
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  2. #52
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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    You were the one who posted the outdated information which I showed to be outdated. Why did you put that into your post with the much more up to date info? That is the sort of error that can later cause others to doubt your veracity.

    There IS evidence that some "CCW permit holders pose a danger" to others. Please note my use of the word "some", unlike far too many with bilateral thinking who can only accept two possibilities for any situation, I do understand that there is often a range of factual answers to any question.

    The following are crimes committed by CCW permit holders from 2007 to 2012


    Total killed - 462. Not that many when compared to the total number of firearms murders but still it does perhaps indicate either inadequate vetting of those who request permits or that no matter how much of a pre-issue investigation may be done to verify the mental stability of the permit seeker - easy access to a firearm does contribute to some of the deaths we have in this country. This is particularly true in those instances where multiple deaths occurred, like the shooting of Gabby Gifford in Arizona where if Jared Loughner had only had a knife, perhaps not so many would have died.

    Information may not be up to the minute, but still illustrates the point... statistically the number of CCW'ers who are charged with crimes is extremely low.


    462, out of six million permit holders, assuming your information is accurate, in a six year period... during that same period there were probably around 180,000 total firearm deaths of which probably about 70,000 were homicides... just counting the homicides that gives us a ratio of 0.0066 permit holders to other homicide subjects... again, a TINY percentage.


    Nice try, no cigar. You're trying to paint me as saying "NO CCW'er is EVER any threat to anyone" when that was not my assertion; my assertion was that STATISTICALLY concealed carry permit holders are not a threat to the public, and indeed probably less of a threat than many police departments.

    Perhaps you're not missing the point... but rather, dodging it....

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  3. #53
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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    No, I did not. We were astonishingly fortunate that my son had not a single scratch; he had a blanket around his shoulders (it was slightly cool that morning) and had interposed it. The fox had bitten the blanket repeatedly but failed to get in a bite on my child.
    Glad to hear it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    "Rabid" was, I suppose, an assumption on my part... but a good assumption. Foxes don't normally act like this... they're not out in the daytime much, they almost never approach humans within touching range, and I've never heard of a non-rabid fox attacking a human unless the humans stumbled over a nest with kits. Thus I presumed the animal was rabid.
    Good assumption ... and I agree with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    We live out in the country. We don't call the authorities for every little thing. I burned the fox carcass (to protect against other animals eating it and possibly being infected) and warned my neighbors, and that was that as far as I was concerned.
    You are lucky that you don't live here in Uncle Joe's state. First, the SPCA would be after you for your 'vicious' (a word they like to use) attack on a wild animal. Second, they would have their shorts in knots because of your 'unwarrented' assumption that the fox was rabid. Third, they would be after you for burning the evidence. DENREC (the DE EPA) would be ballistic because you were burning unauthorized carbon-based material. The county cops would go after you for discharging a weapon. They would want to know if the pistol was registered. They would want to know where you were standing, where the fox was, and where your neighbors live to see if you endangered their safety. They would also know why you took matters into your own hands and did not call for officers to take care of the situation. The health officials would want to know why you didn't take your son in for proper medical evaluation (not to mention taking the dead fox in for rabies testing). Then they'd want to know why you didn't report the incident so they could evaluate it and search the area for other potentially rabid animals.

    I'm sure I've left some gubmet agencies out ... but you would be in the middle of an administrative nightmare.

    YOU DID EVERYTHING RIGHT but the gubmet agencies would go nuts. You'd be the focus of the local rag ... and you'd get more hate letters in the letters to the editor section than you could stand.

    I enjoyed your story ... but if you were here, none of us would have heard it because YOU would be an admitted felon. You would not have told the story ... and that would have been a wise choice.

    A L

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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    Quote Originally Posted by Another Lurker View Post
    Glad to hear it.



    Good assumption ... and I agree with you.



    You are lucky that you don't live here in Uncle Joe's state.

    Not lucky; choice. I've lived other places... I moved back to SC for specific reasons.

    First, the SPCA would be after you for your 'vicious' (a word they like to use) attack on a wild animal. Second, they would have their shorts in knots because of your 'unwarrented' assumption that the fox was rabid.
    Nobody around here cares. We shoot "varmints" (ie anything that causes us problems) any time we feel like it.

    Third, they would be after you for burning the evidence. DENREC (the DE EPA) would be ballistic because you were burning unauthorized carbon-based material.

    Nobody around here cares, unless the fire is dangerously large and uncontrolled.


    The county cops would go after you for discharging a weapon.

    I can stand in my backyard and shoot all day long, perfectly legal. In fact I do this rather often. So do many of my neighbors. Rural area.



    They would want to know if the pistol was registered.

    No such thing in this state.


    They would want to know where you were standing, where the fox was, and where your neighbors live to see if you endangered their safety.
    If someone called the law about this, they'd ask if any person was hurt or any property was damaged... when told "no", the Deputy would incredulously ask "Then what the hell is the problem??"



    They would also know why you took matters into your own hands and did not call for officers to take care of the situation.
    Yeah, nobody cares about that around here; people handle their own problems mostly. We call the county, if we call them at all, to pick up the bodies afterward and write the report. Several months ago one of my neighbors shot a burglar in the leg... he called the law afterward to report it... burglar was arrested, homeowner was not. The locals kidded him, asking him whether he was squeamish or just a crappy shot for not killing the guy.



    The health officials would want to know why you didn't take your son in for proper medical evaluation (not to mention taking the dead fox in for rabies testing).
    In this state, my son: my choice. Now if he came down with rabies that would be different, I could be charged with neglect. I am however, medically trained to a reasonable degree and inspected every inch of his skin for any bite or scratch... had there been any, he would have gone to the ER. Otherwise... we don't run off to the doctor or the hospital for every little thing.




    Then they'd want to know why you didn't report the incident so they could evaluate it and search the area for other potentially rabid animals.
    To my knowlege I am under no legal obligation to do so in my state. In any case, I did make a report... to the neighbors. "Y'all watch out, I shot a rabid fox yesterday..."




    I'm sure I've left some gubmet agencies out ... but you would be in the middle of an administrative nightmare.
    Makes me glad I don't live in your state, but as I said, where I live is not an accident or mere chance of birth, I chose to move back here.



    YOU DID EVERYTHING RIGHT but the gubmet agencies would go nuts. You'd be the focus of the local rag ... and you'd get more hate letters in the letters to the editor section than you could stand.

    I enjoyed your story ... but if you were here, none of us would have heard it because YOU would be an admitted felon. You would not have told the story ... and that would have been a wise choice.

    A L

    Sounds like you need to move elsewhere.
    Last edited by Goshin; 08-27-12 at 09:28 PM.

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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    It can be a bit distorting when trying to compare police and CCWs.

    The CCW 'wins' if the badguy simply runs away, the cop does not.

    The CCW is singled out to be a victim, the badguy usually has no idea he picked the wrong guy until the CCW presents.

    Only undercovers have that advantage, uniformed cops are walking billboards.

    Badguys are not prone to attack their victim in a crowd, they are like any other predator, hunt the separated from the herd, the weak looking, the distracted.

    Cops don't get the luxury of separating the badguy from the herd.

    Having worked a few quals of cops I'd say marksmanship isn't what most would like it to be. A few, because they really like shooting, do quite well. Most pass, a few struggle. Oklahoma's training body, called CLEET, recently dropped the 50 yard line from the qual, weak hand barricade supported, and half the shots were less than 7 yards. Not promoting excellence in marksmanship, but raising test scores.

    Now having seen the 'skills' of quite a few CCWs who attend our pistol courses, basic and advanced defensive, I can say most couldn't do any better than the cops. Most CCWs get the permit and never work on developing the skill set that goes with using the pistol in case of attack. Too much open ground to cross supporting the idea CCWs are better shots than cops, they are rarely in the same situation.

  6. #56
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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    You were the one who posted the outdated information which I showed to be outdated. Why did you put that into your post with the much more up to date info? That is the sort of error that can later cause others to doubt your veracity.

    There IS evidence that some "CCW permit holders pose a danger" to others. Please note my use of the word "some", unlike far too many with bilateral thinking who can only accept two possibilities for any situation, I do understand that there is often a range of factual answers to any question.

    The following are crimes committed by CCW permit holders from 2007 to 2012


    Total killed - 462. Not that many when compared to the total number of firearms murders but still it does perhaps indicate either inadequate vetting of those who request permits or that no matter how much of a pre-issue investigation may be done to verify the mental stability of the permit seeker - easy access to a firearm does contribute to some of the deaths we have in this country. This is particularly true in those instances where multiple deaths occurred, like the shooting of Gabby Gifford in Arizona where if Jared Loughner had only had a knife, perhaps not so many would have died.
    VPC..
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  7. #57
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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    So...






    This wasnt a mass shooting?
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  8. #58
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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    Maybe this guy will volunteer his services to teach NYPD cops to shoot. That was some damn fine shooting. Oh, this guy was a concealed carry holder as well.

    Customer shoots robber dead | www.wokv.com
    Last edited by bicycleman; 08-28-12 at 12:55 PM.

  9. #59
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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    So...

    This wasnt a mass shooting?
    Not at first, not until NYPD made it a mass shooting.

  10. #60
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    Re: All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

    bicycle-
    LE Departments generally have expert Instructors as part of the force. They have training schedules for practice and education. The state level offers courses in a wide variety of continuing education for cops. Many departments issue practice ammo,(yes some guys sell theirs off), and most states require qualifications- at the very least annually.

    Now about your Dude, I can imagine if I was 72 and two badguys came into the store I wouldn't be seen as the biggest threat,(a cop in uniform would). I would expect they would turn their backs on me as they concentrate on the younger folks manning the register or shopping, (they would be so casual with a cop). Most likely I'd be able to present my weapon before the badguys knew what I was doing, (again a uniformed cop doesn't get that grace period)

    Now would be good to know the distance to target, how long the old man had before the bad guy caught on, thinking the badguy never knew what hit him, certainly no exchange of gunfire.

    Not knocking a citizen stopping crime, am knocking you using this as a swipe at cops who confront badguys letting everyone know what they face.

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